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Massie's Augustus Chat Transcript
355 lines of discussion for August 4, 2000

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE 22:26 Lollia Junius: One of Claudius' Sons-in law was murdered when found in bed with a boyfriend 22:26 flavius Horatius: Ovid's real crime probably was something much more mundane than we think:  his poetry flew in the face of the Augustan agenda of changing morality and openly dared to subvert it with the Ars Amatoria.....And, he showed no regret for it! 22:27 Morgana Flavius: Why is that anachronistic, Flavius? The patrician vs. plebeian adultery? 22:27 flavius Horatius: But, you should know that there is also a theory that Ovid's exile was also really nothing more than a literary fiction:  after all, what evidence do we really have other than Ovid's own laments supposedly written from Pontus?  Maybe it was his way of counteracting a severe case of writer's block? 22:29 flavius Horatius: Patrician versus plebeian was no longer an issue:  consider the actual lineage of people like Agrippa, Octavian, Maecenas:  certainly NOT of the traditional Roman 400! 22:29 Sullas Cornelius enters... 22:29 Morgana Flavius: But the Ars Amatoria was written many years before Ovid was exiled. Why Augustus waited so long? 22:29 flavius Horatius: Senators and the Roman 400 may certainly have longed for the old days of patrician/plebeian rivalry where they held the upper hand, but that was past... 22:29 Mara Durotriges: you have a point there on the lineage, flavius! 22:30 Sullas Cornelius: Still talking Augustus? 22:30 Sullas Cornelius: or did we change to pets and makeup? 22:30 Mara Durotriges: I don't remember Ovid being discussed in the Massie, only Virgil, I think I'm lost here 22:31 Morgana Flavius: Hum... The fiction about Ovid's exile does sound like fiction. The exile was mentioned by Cotta Maximus (the son of Ovid's friend). Was he a part of Ovid's literary plot? 22:31 Mara Durotriges: welcome, Sullas! 22:31 flavius Horatius: The theory is that Ovid KEPT publishing the Ars Amatoria and it was the great popularity of this work that irritated Augustus as opposed to the actual humor and poetry of it:  supposedly Augustus wanted Ovid to write more things like the Fasti or Metamorphoses or at least dabble in less contemporary issues that would only incite the wrong sort of passions. 22:31 Mara Durotriges: what do you mean, pets and makeup?! 22:32 flavius Horatius: Yes, and Cotta Maximus was actually the father of RomanPiso, but his real name was Arrius Piso:  you just have to know the code! 22:32 Torrey Philemon: There are many books written about Ovid's exile and records of the letters he wrote of his experience in exile and his pleas to Augustus to restore him....... 22:32 Morgana Flavius: At the end of Massie's book, Augustus writes about Ovid and Julia and that he had sent the poet into exile because his verses corrupted Julia. It's just one paragraph, nothing more. 22:33 flavius Horatius: Yes, the voluminous poetry known as the Trisita Ex Pontis by Ovid do speak a lot about his exile, but then also consider Oscar Wildes' Letters from Gaol or even Martin Luther King's Letters from a Birmingham Jail or Gandhi's letters from prison. 22:34 Torrey Philemon: I was disappointed that Massie didn't refer more to Ovid and the younger Julia...... but of course no one has really uncovered the actual cause of Ovid's exile. It was my impression studying this last year that most historians believe that he saw something he shouldn't have seen...... 22:35 Morgana Flavius: Ah! That's an interesting detail: Ovid KEPT publishing his poems! I can see that this might have irritated Augustus, yes. (Welcome Sullas! We're still talking about Augustus, despite all the Falernian wine I bought!) 22:35 flavius Horatius: [ by the way, my comments about Cotta Maximus was a joke...you know, a joke (spoken as though by Foghorn Leghorn or even Senator Claghorn....)] 22:35 Torrey Philemon: Does anyone know the truth in regard to Tiberius' self-chosen exile - to study astronomy? This was interesting in Massie. 22:35 Morgana Flavius: I was disappointed too, Torrey! 22:35 Lollia Junius enters... 22:36 Torrey Philemon: A belated welcome, Sullas. Did you read Massie's Augustus? 22:37 Morgana Flavius: *whispering to Flavius* I didn't get the joke, although I thought it was one. But you know... I'm not that familiar with the USA politics. I prefer... ancient (and even modern) Rome. (LOL) 22:38 Torrey Philemon: Having not read any historical nonfiction about Tiberius, all I know about his earlier years is what Massie portrayed in his fictional format. Can anyone clue us in here on what is fact and what is fiction? Massie does potray Tiberius as an intriguing character......not very genial, with innate resentment, introspective and not very conversational..... 22:39 Mara Durotriges: *whispering to Morgana* don't feel bad, I live here and I didn't get it either  :) 22:39 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Tiberius self-exile seems an interesting issue too. Was it really a "self" exile? Or Augustus hand was behind it? And what did Livia do? 22:40 Torrey Philemon: (Nor did I <-: ) 22:40 Torrey Philemon: And was the real reason (for Tiberius going away) Julia's infidelities? 22:41 Morgana Flavius: (LOL Mara!) 22:42 flavius Horatius: [it ain't USA politics:  reference to the rambling posts of RomanPiso and his threads and his chatrooms and his constant harangues about Christianity being a Pisonian conspiracy:  all based on the ravings of Abelard Reuchlin: and if you want to know more you have to pay through the nose for his contorted genealogies....Oh, and Senator Claghorn was a parody from American politics that was picked up by Warner Brothers Cartoons with the character Foghorn Leghorn...] [Just remember that my minds works in VERY strange ways and for further proof just look at my post earlier today about Tithonus where I reference the movie "The Fly" and the television show Kung Fu] 22:43 Morgana Flavius: Massie makes us think that Tiberius' exile was caused by Augustus' manipulations over his own family. Tiberius was very much in love with his wife when Augustus forced him to divorce her and marry Julia. And that's historical, not Massie's creation. 22:45 Morgana Flavius: [thanks for the enlightment, Flavius] 22:46 Torrey Philemon: Just found this in a Tiberius bio online: "(Due to the forced marriage to Julia and Augustus neglecting him to groom Lucius and Gaius as his heirs)..... in 6 BC Tiberius found this situation so unbearable that he petitioned for a divorce from Julia. This was denied by Augustus who insisted that the two of them learn to get along. Instead, Tiberius left Rome for voluntary exile or retirement to Rhodes, against his mother's wishes 22:46 flavius Horatius: There is a tendency in most of the imperial biographies to show the future emperors as being genuinely good souls who are eventually corrupted by power and Tiberius was but only one example as was Nero.  Of course, some would argue that part of his problem is that history has to deal with the fact that it was in his reign that the crucifixion took place and there will always be those who think that he was in some ways ultimatley responsible for the actions in Judaea and the later historians certainly relish bashing all Romans and particularly emperors.  For a better picture of Tiberius, consider looking at Paul Maier's ficitonal recounting of the life of Pontius Pilate where you definitely will get a different portrait of Josephus, of Pilate AND of Tiberius.... 22:47 Morgana Flavius: The episode about Tiberius following his ex-wife Vipsania at a party after their divorce is mentioned by Suetonius (if I'm not mistaken). Although Graves uses the episode in his "I Claudius" in a very dramatic form to make us wheep for poor Tiberius. 22:48 Mara Durotriges: From what I gather, Tiberius was the studious sort and also went away to get away from Julia.  When Augustus got him to come back, he was always away on the frontiers, with the armies.  At the death of Augustus, it was Livia who called him back and he sort of ran the gov't but had no taste for all the intrigue and retired to Capri, leaving the administration in the hands of Lucius Aelius Sejanus, and never returned to Rome.  He occasionally exercised power from afar, getting Sejanus executed. along with his family, .  He died when he was 75, naturally or not is debated.  There was speculation that his retreat to Capri included various sexual  reasons - his own deviancy 22:48 flavius Horatius: The Tiberius online bio is the standard interpretation that a petulant Tiberius sought refuge from the anger and neglect of Augustus and that he had to be begged to return to Rome and this image is mirrored by his constant flights to Naples during his own reign as emperor:  makes me think more that he just didn't want to face up to the responsibilities of being the princeps but was content to let others actually do the administering of the government while he partied hearty. 22:48 Torrey Philemon: From one online bio: "All through his unhappy marriage to Julia, Tiberius grieved for his lost love Vipsania. On one occasion while home in Rome between campaigns, he saw her walking along the street. He is said to have followed her at a distance, weeping in acute distress. When Augustus heard of the incident, he forbade Tiberius to ever see her again. " 22:48 Lollia Junius enters... 22:53 Torrey Philemon: Hello.....is anyone posting? My screen stopped refreshing 5 minutes ago. 22:54 flavius Horatius: Not I....busy on some other screens at present.... 22:55 Morgana Flavius: I think many of us got bumped again, Torrey. 22:56 Torrey Philemon: Has anyone read Massie's Tiberius? It's not available in the U.S. but listed at Amazon.co.uk   http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340560053/ 22:57 Torrey Philemon: Are we winding down? Does anyone have anything else to say about Massie's Augustus - or Augustus in relation to Antony and Cleopatra? 22:58 Morgana Flavius: I'm just reading through my notes on Massie's Augustus and found this remark: Augustus said that Cleopatra spoke a bad Greek and didn't know any Latin. Now, where did Massie get that from? 22:58 Mara Durotriges: I'm here, was waiting for someone to speak 22:58 Lollia Junius enters... 22:59 Torrey Philemon: Somewhere, Morgana, I read that although Cleo knew many languages, she didn't know them very well! 22:59 Lollia Junius enters... 23:00 Mara Durotriges: yes. Morgana, I remember that, it goes against what we've heard of her great command of languages, and unlikely, since she was courting the Roman Empire that she would not have learned Latin 23:01 Morgana Flavius: There's also something I'm wondering about... Does everything we know about Augustus' times come from his propaganda? Even the derrogatory parts? (Like the hot nut shells he used to shave his legs, etc?) 23:01 Torrey Philemon: Just glancing over my notes.....One thing Massie says repeatedly is that Augustus DID NOT want Civil War with Antony. But then he did a 180 degree turn and turned totally against Antony. Massie doesn't explain the shift very well. Is it that Octavian glories "Rome" and is infuriated that Antony appears to be betraying Roman values? 23:01 Lollia Junius: Thats from Antony'sm propaganda 23:02 Morgana Flavius: But how would she not know Greek well? Her mother language! 23:02 Mara Durotriges: Augustus is written about in Suetonius and other historians, too, I think, he can't have warped ALL their minds -c an he? 23:02 Torrey Philemon: I think much depends on what you define as propaganda, Morgana. It's my impression that almost all our sources are Roman, and that most of them are after the fact...... Plutarch was a century later, and I think Suetonius was later too.......anyone know? 23:03 Lollia Junius: Could be archaic greek. It had been 300 years since the first Ptolemy after all 23:03 Mara Durotriges: maybe Augustus saw war with Antony as the only way to end the years of civil wars 23:04 flavius Horatius: The hot nutshells were not used to shave his legs, but were heated shells used to soften the hairs on his legs and supposedly to make him more attractive to the dominating lover:  parallel this propaganda with tht about Nicomedes and Julius Caesar and see if you can place much credence in it. 23:04 Mara Durotriges: If I remember correctly, there were 2 forms of Greek, and the one commonly spoken in Alexandria was not the one used by the classic writers, which is what the Romans would have been exposed to in their schools.  I think this is still true today 23:04 Morgana Flavius: You mean the nutshells, Lollia? Antony's propaganda, for sure, but how did that piece of it survive? Did Augustus let it survive? And if so, why? Was Augustus clever enough to let "something slip from his sleeve" just to make everything else look more plausible? 23:05 Lollia Junius: Every Roman male was accused of effeminancy at one time or another. and yes the nutshells were from Antony 23:05 Torrey Philemon: When you think of how falsities of gossip spread in a few days it's hard to give much credence to gossip that has been passed down over 2000 years! Who knows what to believe....... 23:05 Lollia Junius: A man being in love with his wife was a clear sign of it. 23:06 flavius Horatius: You are probably thinking of the coptic language as opposed to Greek and yes Cleopatra was very Greek despite those who would claim to see in her another incarnation of the Black Athena! 23:06 Torrey Philemon: By the way, it seems to me that the Romans were very ambivalent about homosexuality. On the one hand it was somewhat acceptable, especially for young men.....but it was also scorned as well. 23:06 flavius Horatius: ..or of a true Macedonian blue blood! 23:07 Mara Durotriges: Really, Lollia?!  Quite the opposite of what one would think today.  LOL! 23:07 Torrey Philemon: I think the walnut shells to soften his leg hair is actually mentioned in Suetonius. 23:07 Lollia Junius: I thought it was acceptable for married men but not unmarried men. Anyway, yes, thats why Pompey and Antony were accused of it 23:08 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Suetonius and Plutarch wrote much later, but they perused the works Augustus left extant about the facts under his rulership. And that's what I call an extremely well done "propaganda": supress what does not help you and leave only what does. If you're powerful like an Augustus, that would be possible. 23:08 Mara Durotriges: No, I just found the terms for the Greek - demotic and purist 23:08 flavius Horatius: Roman males probably reveled in what we would consider bisexuality and one doesn't have to go far in Horace, Catullus, Vergil, Tibullus or Propertius to see this: but, we do have to remember that most of this poetry was based on Greek models and it certainly is hard to reconcile the varying images of the poets with their diverse subjects and points of view:  either they were very schizophrenic or took a lot of drugs! 23:09 Torrey Philemon: On another note, while several of us are here together, does anyone have any preferences for another book related to our times of Antony, Cleopatra, Caesar, Augustus? The only one that comes to mind for me right now is McCullough's Caesar's Women, in her Caesar series. 23:09 Mara Durotriges: No, I just found the terms for the Greek - demotic and purist 23:09 Lollia Junius: Yeah, in the republic, talking abotu in public was bad. Considered very greek. 23:09 flavius Horatius enters... 23:10 Lollia Junius: I think we should read the first McCullough one and talk about Marius and Sulla. It needs discussion 23:10 Torrey Philemon: Also Shakespeare's plays Julius Caesar and Antony and Cleopatra. 23:10 Mara Durotriges: I haven't read any of her Rome books - and I'd hate to begin in the middle, though I would like to read them all 23:11 Torrey Philemon: I've got Caesar and Caesar's Women which are both selling at Buck a Book for $1 each right now. First Men in Rome isn't though! 23:11 Torrey Philemon: They are all huge epics so reading them all is a major undertaking. 23:12 Mara Durotriges: I personally would like to take some time on the Augustus sources and discuss what we find.  I am intrigued as to whether or not we can get some agreement as to what the 'truth' might be.  And also, all these interesting women.  There's got to be something out there 23:12 Lollia Junius: First men in Rome was her best one as far as writing. The errors are rife, thus the need for discussion 23:12 Mara Durotriges: The play would be fun to do 23:12 flavius Horatius: Buck a book?  Is that an on-line store or one that still believes in bricks and mortar? 23:13 Torrey Philemon: I'm reading Southern's Augustus now and recommend it. Would be interested if anyone else wants to discuss it. 23:13 flavius Horatius: The sound of "buck a book" makes me think that I DO have some scottish blood in me...or maybe some scotch... 23:13 Mara Durotriges: a Dollar Store with books!  What a fun place that would be - I'd need a truck! 23:13 Torrey Philemon: Buck a Book is a discount store for remaindered books that's all over New England. Most hardbacks sell there for $1 - $2 before they come out in paperback. I bought ten copies of Caesar for $1 and am selling them at Ebay for about $8 each! <-: 23:14 Torrey Philemon: (believe it or not the Gates of Fire Thermopylae novel is also selling there for $1 and that's still hot) 23:15 Morgana Flavius: I've just finished the first quarter of McCullough's First Man in Rome. I found it very well written and she seems to have done her homework very thoroughly on Roman history. All the maps, the glossary, etc. are very enlightning. And I am enojoying the lessons on Marius and Sulla's times too! 23:15 Mara Durotriges: I want to read that one - I have the 2nd one but not the Gates 23:15 Torrey Philemon: Here's Pat Southern's Augustus.....it's not out in paperback though. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415166314/ 23:16 Lollia Junius enters... 23:16 Torrey Philemon: I'm not sure I will read First Men in Rome, but Morgana, please feel free to initiate a discussion of it, as there seems to be some interest. 23:17 Torrey Philemon: Also Morgana and I both like Southern's Antony but you can only get that at amazon.co.uk I think 23:18 Morgana Flavius: Really Lollia? McCullough fooled me with all those maps and glossary? 23:18 Lollia Junius: Yep, no Iulia in Plutarch, and many other things are off. 23:19 Torrey Philemon: LOL! One of the amazon.com reviews for Augustus:  Reviewer: caesar_augustus@hotmail.com: " This one is an intelligent and sometimes even funny description of my life." 23:19 Morgana Flavius: Southern's Augustus is for sale at Amazon USA, Torrey. And I am reading it too, and think it's a wonderful resource on Augustus' times. I'm just half way through. 23:20 Torrey Philemon: Seems like we have some agreement here. Mara says she wants to read more about Augustus. Shall we discuss Southern's Augustus next? 23:20 Mara Durotriges: LOL, Torrey! 23:21 Mara Durotriges: OK, I'll order it tomorrow.  I'll let you know when I get it so we can schedule another chat 23:22 Torrey Philemon: Great! How's that Morgana? A chat on Southern's Augustus etc. later in August? Anyone else interested? 23:22 Morgana Flavius: Talking about Scotish blood, Flavius, please tell us more about Massie. Who is he? And as far as I could see, he does not make many historical mistakes, but he chose to follow the more ortodox history on Augustus. And of course, he does take "literary liberties", specially in the famous rape episode. 23:23 Mara Durotriges: And meanwhile, I'm going to have a whack at Suetonius and anyone else who might have something to add 23:23 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I'm definitely in for a chat on Southern's Augustus. 23:26 Morgana Flavius: Still on Massie: I was very angry at him when I read that fake preface. But then, after a while, looking at the book layout more thouroughly, I realized that the preface is actually part of "Book One" of the "memoirs". So I pardoned Massie for the trick. ;-) 23:26 Torrey Philemon: Oh yes, Suetonius! We could include Suetonius' Augustus in our next chat....or do it first! It's quite short. Shall that be a separate chat or the same? It's online too. 23:27 Mara Durotriges: gimick, true, but stirs the interest of those who might not otherwise read it perhaps 23:27 Torrey Philemon: Maybe we could do a chat on Suetonius since Mara doesn't have Southern yet.....then do Southern afterwards. 23:28 Mara Durotriges: Suetonius and the Res Gestae, I've only skimmed the latter 23:28 Mara Durotriges: I'm up for some non-fiction if anyone else is 23:29 Morgana Flavius: I have printed the online Suetonius on Augustus, but I don't feel like reading it. I'm just cross checking it for the references in Southern. Anyway, if I have time, I'll read it after finishing Southern. 23:29 Torrey Philemon: How about that? Suetonius and the Res Gestae in 1 or 2 weeks? Then Southern? .... Or we could combine them all into one chat later in the month. 23:30 Mara Durotriges: two weeks sounds good and then the Southern 23:31 Morgana Flavius: Southern is non fiction and I rather read non fiction about Augustus too, Mara. 23:31 Torrey Philemon: I"m not sure that Morgana wants to read Suetonius first.......Shall we just have a free for all in about three weeks -----Southern, Suetonius and Res Gestae together? 23:31 Mara Durotriges: and I'm curious about the Augustus parts of the Aeneid also.  Hell, I'm curious about almost everything.  LOL!  Amazing what I don't know! 23:32 Mara Durotriges: Free for all sounds ok to me 23:32 Morgana Flavius: Oh boy... Res Gestae sucks, folks... Are you really going to READ it? 23:33 Mara Durotriges: We could also (and I'm nudging myself here, especially) make use of the Women board to post on these nonfiction ones 23:33 Torrey Philemon: Actually I'm out of town August 24-27. Could do Monday August 21 though or Friday August 18. Preferences? 23:33 Torrey Philemon: Well Mara can tell us all about the Res Gestae. I think it's short anyway. We can use it to Augustus-bash. 23:33 Morgana Flavius: Ok, free for all. 23:34 Mara Durotriges: oh, the Southern is?  Yep, Morgana, I'm gona suffer and read it - or most of it if it's really that bad, skimming closely works too 23:34 Torrey Philemon: (Morgana, you sure know how to use American slang for someone who isn't U.S. born! LOL! ) 23:34 Mara Durotriges: the later might be better - I don't have the Southern yet 23:35 Torrey Philemon: My question is how long it will take for Mara to get Southern and to read it. Is 2 weeks enough? 23:35 Morgana Flavius: After August 20 will be fine for me. 23:35 Mara Durotriges: the great brain-wash we're inflicting upon the world. Torrey  LOL! 23:36 Mara Durotriges: I can't commit until I have the book in my hand.  Mail can be terribly slow when one is pressed for time 23:37 Torrey Philemon: Monday August 21 then or Monday August 28 (I usually teach Monday nights but not in late August. Speaking of AUGUST.....how  appropriate we are reading about AUGUSTUS during his month. AUGUST chosen too because he defeated Antony on August 1!) 23:37 Mara Durotriges: what an AUGUST choice we've made here 23:38 Torrey Philemon: Ok we'll aim for one of those dates and decide specifically on the board. Maybe others are interested too. Though I don't know if we should continue discussing Augustus on our Cleopatra board or switch to one of the two Augustus' boards. 23:38 Torrey Philemon: Great minds think alike, Mara and Morgana <-: Or should I say AUGUST minds. 23:38 Morgana Flavius: Hum... I think Flavius and Lollia are now discussing the hottest issue of the week: the AncientVine site and the possible end of AncientSites as we know it... 23:38 Lollia Junius enters... 23:39 Lollia Junius: I'm still here 23:39 Mara Durotriges: Women is a bit inappropriate - unless we can dig up facts on the ladies 23:39 Mara Durotriges: what's the 2nd of the Augustus boards?  Fab Bib? 23:40 Torrey Philemon: Massie's Augustus board is here http://www.ancientsites.com/xi/interface/bb/readTopic.rage?BB=xi_data/Rome/bb/ER&TT=42&num=20 23:40 Mara Durotriges: yeah, I've noticed the talk of that, Morgana.  The infamous e-mail states additions rather than replacements.  One can only hope they aren't going to destroy this fine place, just when I've gotten so comfy here 23:41 Torrey Philemon: The 2nd board is in Emperors, but they've switched into Aeneid discussion now.  http://www.ancientsites.com/xi/interface/bb/readTopic.rage?BB=xi_data/Rome/bb/Emperors&TT=32&num=8 23:41 Morgana Flavius: I think we should definitely discuss Augustus on the Augustus' board. Which one, it's up to us, but let's move to the same board, please. And I'm confident AS will be here by the end of the month to host our chat. 23:41 Mara Durotriges: I've got that one, Torrey, what's the other? 23:42 Morgana Flavius: And Torrey, where did you get the date of August 1 for Antony's defeat? My records show that the Actium battle was fought on September 2. 23:43 Mara Durotriges: Thanks, Torrey, I'll look into the Emperors one 23:43 Torrey Philemon: It wasn't Actium but the day Augustus entered Alexandria and Antony killed himself. August 1, as far as I know. A year later. 23:44 Torrey Philemon: Why don't we just co-opt the Massie board for Southern, since the other board is going off into a lot of other tangents. 23:46 Morgana Flavius: Ah, ok. Torrey. And yes, you're right. That's when Antony was actually defeated, not in Actium, as Augustus spread. 23:46 Mara Durotriges: ok, The Massie board in Rome/Encyclopedia is good for me 23:46 Lollia Junius: No, The battle of Actium was on August 1st 23:47 Torrey Philemon: Now I'm confused Lollia! All I know is that either Actium or entry into Alexandria was August 1! 23:47 Morgana Flavius: Massie board, then? Ok. 23:48 Torrey Philemon: Ok Massie board. I'll announce there.  23:48 Lollia Junius: Actium was. Cause an altar was dedicated to Augustus on the anniverary in 12 BC 23:49 Morgana Flavius: Battle of Actium was fought on 2 September 31. (Southern, Augustus, p. 96) 23:50 Mara Durotriges: oh, Torrey, I thought you were going to edit our last chat - there we all were, mysterious plots, old age, livers and all!  LOL!! 23:51 Torrey Philemon: Well, we'll just have to research this! I know that Augustus named himself Augustus because he had been referred to as being AUGUST and because he defeated Antony on the first day of August. But the question is what event is regarded as the actual defeat. 23:52 Torrey Philemon: Mara, I did edit the last chat! I left out all references to our ages! 23:52 Torrey Philemon: Inimitable midlivers inimitable midlivers inimitable midlivers. That's my Harry Potter magic incantation..... Lollia, Antony and Cleopatra had a club called the Inimitable Livers and I coined the term Inimitable Midlivers for those of us in midlife. 23:53 Morgana Flavius: LOL Torrey! 23:54 Lollia Junius: LOL! :) 23:54 Mara Durotriges: And I'm still avoiding the Actium fixation you two have, sorry, I'll shut up a minute and listen 23:59 Morgana Flavius: *silently remembering Actium* ;-) 23:59 Lollia Junius: I have to go now. Good night all! 00:00 Torrey Philemon: (Goodness, Morgana, we're going to have a memorial service! <-: ) 00:00 Morgana Flavius: LOL!!!! 00:02 Torrey Philemon: Goodnight, Lollia. So glad you could join us. Also Flavius, wherever you are! 00:02 Morgana Flavius: Humpf! The minight pumpkin ate the chat, swallowing it into the previous day. Will have to hit "transcript" to see what was written a few minutes ago. 00:03 Mara Durotriges: Article XXXIV of the Res Gestae, quoted in the Massie:  In my sixth and seventh consulships, after I  had put an end to the civil wars, having attained supreme power by universal consent, I transferred the state from my own power to the control of the Roman Senate and the People.  For this service of mine I received the title of Augustus by decree of the Senate....and there is another reference in here someplace about the Augustus title as an alternative to the imperator or dictator or ... 00:05 Torrey Philemon: In 8 B.C. he renamed the month Sextilis.... August. Sextilis refers to six doesn't it? Was this the sixth month, beginning with March springtime?.... From a telegram Lollia just sent me, information about August 1 in Roman history ......  http://www.ancientsites.com/xi/interface/bb/readMessage.rage?BB=/xi_data/Rome/groups/Byzantium/bb/main&TT=264&MM=170 00:13 Mara Durotriges: p. 235  the proposal of the name Augustus, can't type it all out, go see it 00:14 Torrey Philemon: Thanks Mara......well  I guess we're all going to sleep!! I'm editing the transcript now and I'll post it soon........ 00:15 Mara Durotriges: Good night!  Enjoyed it, as usual 00:15 Mara Durotriges exits 00:17 Morgana Flavius: p. 235 of what book Mara? 00:18 Morgana Flavius: oh... too late... Good night then. 00:22 Torrey Philemon: Oh, Massie. I just looked it up. Page 235, references to Augustus' name change. 00:23 Morgana Flavius exits... Go to next Augustus Chat

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