John Williams' Augustus Chat
196lines of discussion for
Nov. 8, 2000

20:58 Mara Durotriges enters...
20:59 Mara Durotriges: I'm early
21:10 Mara Durotriges enters...
21:10 Morgana Flavius enters...
21:11 Morgana Flavius: Hello Mara!
21:11 Mara Durotriges: Hi!  I enjoyed all those posts!
21:12 Morgana Flavius: Chat on John Williams' "Augustus" book in a few minutes.
21:12 Torrey Philemon enters...
21:13 Morgana Flavius: Thank you!
21:13 Morgana Flavius: Please give me a minute. I'll be right back.
21:13 Morgana Flavius exits...
21:14 Torrey Philemon: Hi folks. Sorry I'm late.I'm going to have to reboot too because my memory's down to 10% and my screen is freezing. Why don' t you both start and I'll be back soon....
21:14 Mara Durotriges: Hi Torrey
21:14 Torrey Philemon: Ah, I see Morgana left. Well I'll be away a few minutes too and will be ready to start by 9:20 at the latest (hopefully).
21:15 Torrey Philemon: (Hi and bye Mara <-: )
21:15 Torrey Philemon exits...
21:18 Torrey Philemon enters...
21:18 Torrey Philemon: Mara, are you there?
21:20 Mara Durotriges: yes, just dozing here
21:20 Morgana Flavius enters...
21:20 Morgana Flavius: Back!
21:21 Torrey Philemon: ah, we're all here. I just printed out all your recent posts and will have to read them now as we chat. Too caught up in election fervor the past few days.
21:22 Torrey Philemon: Want to talk about Julia first? I'm reading Mara's Julia post now....
21:22 Morgana Flavius: *gently waking up Mara* Hey, pst! We're all here now.
21:23 Morgana Flavius: It would be ok to start with Julia, yes.
21:23 Mara Durotriges: I think most of what Williams wrote is his own invention but I enjoyed it.  It certainly seemed possible for Julia to be writing the journal
21:23 Torrey Philemon: Yes, wake up Mara! (not as gently as Morgana)
21:24 Morgana Flavius: Isn't it amazing that she was so popular and yet... not much about her is there in history?
21:24 Mara Durotriges: Men wrote the jistory and she did get banished
21:25 Torrey Philemon: Women seem to get attention in history when they're colorful in somewhat "immoral" ways......
21:25 Morgana Flavius: I enjoyed Williams on Julia too. The best parts of the book for me. And I agree with Mara that most of it was Williams' invention.
21:25 Mara Durotriges: True
21:26 Morgana Flavius: ...and it seems that there was nothing "official" that could be kept on Julia's record. Like some buildings or temples dedicated by her, etc.
21:27 Torrey Philemon: Yes, the inner life of Julia had to be fictitious. What is curious to me is the issue of whether she was behind/or knew about the conspiracies against Augustus.
21:27 Torrey Philemon: Mara quoted an interesting passage though about her adulteries being most threatening to dynastic succession.
21:28 Morgana Flavius: Octavia and Livia had porticoes, they were bestowed with "sacrosanctity"... I think they got some attention exactly by "not" being "immoral".
21:29 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I've read in several occasions that Julia's adulterous behavior did p.-off Augustus more because it poised some doubts about the paternity of her sons.
21:29 Torrey Philemon: True, Morgana. People are drawn intellectually to the good women such as Octavia and Livia..... but emotionally curious about the "bad women"!
21:30 Torrey Philemon: Yet Williams suggested the real reason for her exile was her involvement in a political conspiracy to kill him - NOT adultery. That adultery was just an excuse. But a conspiracy to kill her own father is hard to believe!
21:30 Morgana Flavius: But then again... why would Augustus bother so much if what mattered was "his" blood on Julia's children, not Agripa's.
21:30 Mara Durotriges: I don't think she was part of any conspiracy.  She was just out for the fun of it and perhaps got serious over Jullus Antonius.  She would have been fooling around with the more important members of her age group, by virtue of who she was.  And the important and powerful would be the ones plotting things - if indeed they were plotting
21:32 Morgana Flavius: Right, and Williams goes even further ahead on that speculation, saying that Tiberius knew all about it and wanted to reaise an army and go back to Rome, get Julia on trial for treason (death was the penalty), thus getting rid of her, and be the savior hero of Augustus' life.
21:32 Mara Durotriges: I was surptised not to be able to pin down information on this plot.
21:33 Torrey Philemon: I don't think she was part of the conspiracy either.....but the question is, did she know about it? And if so, supported it or chose NOT to warn her father......
21:34 Morgana Flavius: Right, and Williams goes even further ahead on that speculation, saying that Tiberius knew all about it and wanted to reaise an army and go back to Rome, get Julia on trial for treason (death was the penalty), thus getting rid of her, and be the savior hero of Augustus' life.
21:34 Torrey Philemon: Just read your post on Julia, Morgana..... you ask what the aim of the conspiracy/plot against Augustus was........ which leads me to wonder what the primary objection the conspirators had to his rule.....
21:35 Mara Durotriges: If these guys were plotting, why would they take a chance on her not telling her father?
21:35 Torrey Philemon: Mara, Morgana just icqed me to say that her A.S. screen froze and she has to leave and re-enter.....
21:36 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Mara. Maybe she didn't know.......but it's strange that she has several lovers, all plotting, and she doesn' t know what they're up to.....
21:36 Torrey Philemon: (Someone really  ought to make a movie about the life of Julia! It would be juicy)
21:36 Morgana Flavius: I have my doubts if she knew about the conspiracy, but maybe she did. She probably was angry w/ her father for having made her marry Tiberius.
21:37 Mara Durotriges: The Gnaeus Piso that kept Tiberius informed during this time led a failed conspiracy against Tiberius at a later date.  Odd how he was so interested in keeping Tiberius informed and giving him advice
21:38 Torrey Philemon: I have a sense she was angry with her father in general, for trying to control her so much...... (granted, in that day and age, his behavior was probably as expected)
21:38 Morgana Flavius: The young generation was interested in removing Augustus because he held all the ultimate power and the Senate (which would be their alternative) was not strong and did not actually count.
21:40 Torrey Philemon: That makes sense, Morgana. We're probably also talking about normal younger progressive vs. older conserative rebellion as well......
21:40 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Torrey, probably.
21:41 Morgana Flavius: And Julia was their idol. She was very popular.
21:41 Mara Durotriges: The younger set would have been rebelling against all the moral laws too
21:42 Torrey Philemon: You've done some useful research, Mara. Based on it, do you think the real reason for Julia's exile was dynastic -- protecting the parentage of her children?
21:42 Morgana Flavius: So Augustus, like the "Republicans" in USA (what an irony, Augustus a Republican!) vs. Jullus Antonius and his group of young fellow "Democrats".
21:44 Morgana Flavius: How could Julia's exile protect her children's parentage?
21:44 Mara Durotriges: No.  I just thought that was an interesting slant on these people.  I think she was exiled because she was an embarrassment to Augustus and was openly flaunting the standards he set for Rome.  It was an undermining of his position
21:45 Morgana Flavius: I suspect that the moral laws were there to be used in cases like Julia's: only when Augustus was interested in commuting the death penalty for the exile.
21:45 Mara Durotriges: Good question, Morgana.  Wasn't she 38 when she was sent away?  Probably wasn't going to be having a lot more kids anyway
21:46 Torrey Philemon: What I meant Morgana is that if Julia is exiled away from men she wouldn't give birth to children of dubious parentage (and yes, you're becoming astute about U.S. politics!)
21:46 Morgana Flavius: I thought like you, Mara, but I changed my mind.
21:47 Morgana Flavius: It seems that if you were adulterous but were NOT plotting against Augustus, the law would not be used against you. And it seems that everyone knew about it.
21:47 Mara Durotriges: They could have easier done away with any suspect child.  A lot more private.  Stillbirth and infant mortality was common
21:47 Torrey Philemon: It's easy for us to look for ONE reason why a particular event occurred when in actuality there may be several causes ----- Julia flaunted the moral laws, she could give birth to non-Augustan children, AND she might have been involved a conspiracy against him.
21:48 Mara Durotriges: I don't think Augustus or Livia would have hesitated to do in a baby
21:49 Torrey Philemon: It's interesting though that Williams chose to portray the conspiracy as the real reason, but pretend it was adultery.....
21:49 Mara Durotriges: Besides, any child she had would be half Augustan - her half- just like her children with Agrippa
21:49 Morgana Flavius: I really don't think that Augustus was worried about Julia's possible future children at that point. He was more worried about stopping the conspiracy. At the time of Julia's exile, both her sons were still alive and Augustus' dynastic plans were not jeopardized. Again, what mattered was Julia's blood, not her husband's.
21:50 Torrey Philemon: Interesting, Mara, that they could so easily get rid of a child. But how would they know for sure who the real father was? How could they know they weren't killing a real child of Augustus? They'd always be faced with uncertainty.
21:50 Mara Durotriges: Most of her lovers were highborn.  There were stories of her hanging around in sleazy baths though.
21:50 Torrey Philemon: Child of Tiberius I mean to say.....
21:52 Morgana Flavius: It seems that there was not much doubt about Agripa's blood on Julia's children, as they looked like him. And there's that witty saying attributed to Julia: that she only took a passenger when the ship was already full. (LOL)
21:52 Torrey Philemon: <-:
21:53 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, let's keep in mind that Tiberius did not have Augustus' blood. Only Julia had. So as long as a child was hers (no matter who the father was), the child would carry Augustus' blood.
21:54 Torrey Philemon: True, Morgana. So perhaps Augustus didn't care so much who the father was?
21:55 Morgana Flavius: Anyway, all involved in shadow, probably by the same tactics used in the Cleopatra case. Augustus always supported the versions saying that Caesarion as not Julius Caesar's son.
21:56 Torrey Philemon: It's as if the truth doesn't matter, just the public perception of it. Typical politics.
21:56 Morgana Flavius: I think that Augustus didn't care who the father was. And he didn't care about her daughter's adulterous behavior either. Augustus was not faithful, and there is no doubt about that. But since Augustus would not plot against Augustus... the law was never used against him. ;-)
21:56 Mara Durotriges: I think it was very important to Augustus to keep the Empire running after his death.  He would have thought that a direct descendant  of his would carry more weight in any succession dispute.  All through his life, everything was done for Rome.
21:58 Torrey Philemon: Yes, like with Cleopatra, his dynasty was the most important to him. But I do get the impression that he was VERY troubled by Julia's adulteries. That is was a moral affront to him. He had a strong double standard.
22:00 Morgana Flavius: I think that Augustus didn't care who the father was. And he didn't care about her daughter's adulterous behavior either. Augustus was not faithful, and there is no doubt about that. But since Augustus would not plot against Augustus... the law was never used against him. ;-)
22:01 Morgana Flavius: Sorry for the duplicity of postings. Sometimes my screen freezes and when I reload, my last post is repeated.
22:02 Torrey Philemon: What did you mean to say Morgana..... Augustus would not plot against Augustus?
22:02 Mara Durotriges: Augustus also liked to keep control of things and he certainly had no control over Julia.  Maybe it was more of a preventative measure - stopping her behavior before something bad happened
22:03 Morgana Flavius: One thing I like about Julia, though: she was who she was and there was no ambiguity about her person. Not like her father... She never denied that she was an adulteress. And in the end, even Augustus had to admit it publicly, even if only to avoid something worse.
22:03 Mara Durotriges: And he did not like to be made to look bad - he was always very secretive about his private life, of which Julia was supposed to be a part.  But she was, I'm sure, quite publically gossipped about
22:03 Torrey Philemon: (It's my impression that the adultery of men was forgiveable, and passed off with a shrug, whereas women's adultery was what Augustus and others of his time objected to...... and that that in part did have to do with who was the father of the children)
22:03 Morgana Flavius: You have a very good point, Mara.
22:04 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Mara. He carefully controlled his persona, and Julia, as an extension of himself, undermined it.
22:05 Morgana Flavius: (On Augustus would not plot against Augustus: that was a joke. I meant to say that his law of adultery would never be used against him, because it seems that the law was only used when there was a political interest to get rid of the adulterous)
22:06 Mara Durotriges: I read in "Women in the Classical World:  Lex  julia was supposed to bring back the idealized righteous past....there are so many parallels of their time to what goes on today.  I keep thinking of them as I read all these books
22:07 Morgana Flavius: But Torrey, in Julia's case all her lovers were condemned too. Much more men than the only woman involved were caught by the law.
22:08 Morgana Flavius: Well, Mara, that was probably part of Augustus propaganda when he issued the Lex Julia: that he was doing that in order to bring back the good principles of the past.
22:08 Torrey Philemon: The appeal to morality often covering up a lot of hypocrisy, as there is today too..... (Right, Morgana, Julia's lovers were condemned but it's my impression they were really condemned for conspiracy not adultery. That adultery was an EXCUSE covering up a bigger political agenda)
22:09 Mara Durotriges: The laws stated, I think that everybody involved would be banished or killed.  Even the husband or father who let adultery happen
22:09 Torrey Philemon: Mara - you read the moral laws. I don't remember them exactly - but weren't the punishments more against women, except that a man was punished if he didn't REPORT his wife's adultery. I don't think there was a stated punishment for a man's adultery.
22:10 Morgana Flavius: Augustus was always very careful in including some "conservative, republican" values to counterbalance his "new order": the principate.
22:10 Torrey Philemon: In any case, the moral laws weren't always enforced..... only it seems when enforcing them seemed to serve a larger political purpose.
22:11 Mara Durotriges: um, I'd have to look it up but I think there was,
22:11 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, the official reason for Julia's lovers punishment was adultery, not political conspiracy. But it is my opinion that the real reason was political conspiracy, but this was kept stricly off record.
22:12 Morgana Flavius: I remember that we discussed the Lex Julia and one of the points was that men were not condemned for adultery if the woman was not of a high social rank.
22:14 Morgana Flavius: The Lex Julia was clearly aimed at the higher classes, the patricians, who were the only ones entitled to aim at political positions.
22:16 Torrey Philemon: I'm trying to find my url on the Lex Julia and can't. Do you have it Mara or Morgana? Yes, I agree Morgana that adultery was the official reason but not the real reason.
22:18 Morgana Flavius: I don't have Lex Julia bookmarked...
22:19 Mara Durotriges: no, I don't
22:20 Torrey Philemon: This is an Augustan legislation url but it only has a little bit of info on the Lex Julia
22:21 Morgana Flavius: I really don't think that there was any bias against women in Lex Julia. Whenever the person involved was a patrician, men or women, the law was enforced. And I would add that Lex Julia was enforced only when there was political interest in removing certain patricians from the political scene.
22:21 Torrey Philemon: Here we go ....
22:21 Torrey Philemon: Here we go ....
22:22 Morgana Flavius: The "purity of blood" reason was only secondary. But of course, the official reason was always the "ideal principles of the past" coming back as part of the new order.
22:22 Torrey Philemon: And some references here - for Mara's reading <-:
22:23 Torrey Philemon: Well put, Morgana. That it was only enforced when there were other political reasons.....
22:23 Mara Durotriges:
22:24 Mara Durotriges: Ah, I should have looked before I hit that post button.  I'm redundant!
22:26 Morgana Flavius: I also think that Augustus knew all the time about Julia's behavior. He had informants who would report anything to him. Probably, his friends would not mention it, but his (paid) informants would. Augustus only publicly recognized it when political reasons pressed him to do so.
22:27 Morgana Flavius: Ladies, just to let you know that I will have to go in approx. 30 minutes.
22:28 Morgana Flavius: And I would like to know your opinion about Tiberius too.
22:28 Torrey Philemon: When I think  of Augustus and Julia I think of how we can play tricks on ourselves in our own minds........ like know something but not let ourselves know at the same time. Not really face it. A lot of us have done that in romantic relationships - not really allowed us to see who the other is, wanting to maintain our own image of the other person so we're not disillusioned or have to face something unpleasant.
22:28 Torrey Philemon: (Glad to see we found the same reference, Mara <-: )
22:30 Torrey Philemon: Want to switch to talking about Tiberius? Morgana, I'm just reading your posts and welcome your suggestion about reading a book about Tiberius next. There aren't many. I ordered Massie's Tiberius from but it's not available.........
22:30 Mara Durotriges: I agree with the idea that Tiberius was keeping his hand in even when he was in exile., through the use of spies
22:31 Torrey Philemon: (The only readibly available Tiberius book I can find is here  )
22:33 Mara Durotriges: Massie wrote one didn't he?
22:33 Torrey Philemon: It's hard to get the Massie one. I ordered it three months ago and Amazon just emailed me to say they can't get it.
22:35 Morgana Flavius: Mara, do you think that Tiberius' behavior, at the end of his life, deviated in that extreme way described by Suetonius?
22:37 Morgana Flavius: (taking a look at that book link, Torrey)
22:38 Mara Durotriges: I think that at least some of that was true, perhaps exagerated though.  He did leave Rome after not too many years of his reign, didn't he?
22:39 Mara Durotriges: Tacitus has written on him in his Annals, but I have not read that one, just the Suetonius and I was looking at the early parts, before and just after Augustus died
22:39 Torrey Philemon: I seem to want to disbelieve Suetonius' Tiberius..... and the degenerate portrayals of him. I don't find enough in the earlier partof his life to substantiate it. He seems to have had a very complex personality - and as Morgana pointed out he did also have a quiet, retiring (and even scholarly) side.
22:40 Morgana Flavius: Some people say he left Rome because he feared for his life. In Capri (an island) he had more control on who came in and out his palace.
22:41 Torrey Philemon: You both seem to believe he had political reasons for his exile, beyond getting away from Julia. That he intended to keep involved in the affairs of Rome, from a distance.
22:42 Morgana Flavius: The book "Tiberius the Politician" seems a good one. But it is Would take me at least 2 months to get it... and at an exorbitant price in my currency now...
22:43 Torrey Philemon: (the barnes and noble page on Tiberius the Politican has an index of the book's contents. it's too long a url or I would post it here)
22:43 Morgana Flavius: The reason for his exile is a difficult thing to find out. Could have been anyone Mara pointed out in her post. But what he DID during his exile... that could be interesting...
22:44 Torrey Philemon: Morgana - I'm open to other suggestions in regard to reading about Tiberius. I don't have one though......EXCEPT......
22:44 Mara Durotriges: I thought at first that he had exiled himself form Rome, not only because of Julia but because he didn't really want to be in government, only to study.  And Livia was thrusting him on Augustus as a successor.  But I discarded that notion for some reason.  Would have to read more to back it up
22:44 Torrey Philemon: I just looked at and they have several copies of Massie's Augustus......but only two are low-priced. I could always have one sent to you. But we'd all need to get a copy.
22:45 Mara Durotriges: I wonder if you'd get books faster, Morgana if one of us ordered them and mailed them to you?
22:46 Morgana Flavius: Maybe we could read the classics on Tiberius: Suetonius is online and I have Tacitus.
22:46 Torrey Philemon: We're both thinking the same thing, Mara. I just saw a listing at Abebooks that said they have multiple copies of Massie's book.  For $13.99. We're limiting our group with an out of print book, but then again it's mostly the three of us.
22:47 Torrey Philemon: Certainly we could start with Suetonius.
22:47 Mara Durotriges: He's in Dio too - and I'm not missing that one - only the one with Julia and Livia and Augustus.  I've been waiting for that one forever!
22:47 Mara Durotriges: There are so many used book places, I'm sure I can find one
22:48 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I would get books faster if mailed by someone. I never knew why USA takes so long... And so does Barnes & Noble. Amazon. com UK delivers faster (as long as they have it readily available, of course)
22:48 Torrey Philemon: I like reading a classic (nonfiction) AND then a fictionalization. If we start with the classics, we've got more information to go on.....
22:49 Torrey Philemon: Question is, after Suetonius and other classics on Augustus - do you want to go with out of print Massie OR the Tiberius the Politician nonfiction book? I don't have to decide now, but Morgana may if she needs 4-6 weeks to get the book.
22:49 Mara Durotriges: I like picking through the non fiction first, so I I know enough to enjoy the novel and be able to find the realities in it
22:49 Torrey Philemon: (Personally I can't wait to start discussing Song of Troy after this, but then am happy to do Tiberius)
22:51 Mara Durotriges: YES!!  I want to read my Troy book! 
22:51 Morgana Flavius: So do I: non-fiction first, then enjoy a good novel about it.
22:51 Torrey Philemon: (The Troy book is fantastic, Mara! I'm 150 pages into it)....... Mara, why don't you lead us in telling us what classics to read on Tiberius. All I know is Suetonius.
22:52 Morgana Flavius: I can discuss Song of Troy whenever you want, ladies. And I can start reading what I already have about Tiberius and then look for Massie's one in a used book store.
22:53 Torrey Philemon: Either Mara and I could try to get Massie for you, Morgana - just ask one of us.
22:53 Morgana Flavius: It seems that Suetonius and Tacitus are the main sources on Tiberius. Any other? Mara?
22:53 Torrey Philemon: (About Song of Troy, have we decided on December 1? I'd rather not wait that long, but it's hard to find a time we all can agree on. Besides, we can start posting about it first)
22:54 Mara Durotriges: I find that with the years between when I was taught whatever I was taught in school and now, that I have forgotten or never known a lot of history and it's hard to really read the novel if you can't place it in a time frame.  When we first started Cleopatra, I had to scurry around through all the Ptolemys after I'd read a chapter, I knew I was lost
22:55 Morgana Flavius: Torrey, there is another problem: it is very complicated to send money abroad from here. Paying with credit card is easy. So I prefer to order the book and wait and see how long it would take. Perhaps a used bookstore would be faster than
22:55 Mara Durotriges: Oh, I forgot to post.  I may be around the weekend of 17,18 but I cannot promise as I have commitments and I don't really know when I'll be here.  And I don't think I'll be quite rational anyw
22:55 Torrey Philemon: I was going to post some Iliad etc. links related to Song of Troy, Mara. I'm sure we could all do a lot of research in regard to the historical background / time frame /classics to compare the novel to.
22:56 Torrey Philemon: Ok Morgana. I recommend for used books and Mara may a recommendation too.
22:56 Morgana Flavius: I agree with you, Mara!
22:57 Torrey Philemon: Ok Mara and Morgana, sounds like December 1st works for all three of us then. (I'm out of town for awhile in midDecember and I think Morgana is too - ?? )
22:57 Morgana Flavius: Alright. I'll abebooks. And if Mara has another suggestion, I'll be glad to check it out too. I must go now, ladies.
22:58 Mara Durotriges:   used books extraordinare!  and Barnes and noble has a used section also,
22:58 Morgana Flavius: No, I won't be out of town in December (unfortunately) :-(
22:58 Mara Durotriges: good night Morgana!
22:58 Torrey Philemon: One thing I appreciate about both of you is that you like so much to research the books we read! It's so much fun to have a meeting of minds in this way.
22:59 Torrey Philemon: Take care, Morgana. Sorry your trip won't work out in December.
22:59 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I've already bought at B&N used books, but it takes forever.
22:59 Morgana Flavius: Good night!
23:00 Morgana Flavius exits...
23:00 Torrey Philemon: The book I sent you awhile back (Cleopatra) was from a bookstore via Abe books, Morgana. I think it was fairly quick.
23:01 Mara Durotriges: That's why I'm so fond of AS.  I always thought I was just weird for wanting to look up everything while I was reading - and look!  a whole site full of other weird people just like me!!
23:02 Torrey Philemon: So you want to read Massie's Tiberius after we read some classics, Mara? And so some research for Song of Troy in the next few weeks?
23:02 Torrey Philemon: Well I'm not sure that a lot of A.S. people like to do this kind of research..... too many are into role-playing...... but there are indeed a good number of kindred spirits here. Are you involved in any other book discussions at A.S.?
23:07 Mara Durotriges: Aeneid, Oresteia, Hobbit (a relaxation one) this.  When I'm done with Aeneid, I want to read Tides of War, there is a slow start to that one, fortunately for me
23:07 Mara Durotriges: I left out the Troy
23:08 Torrey Philemon: You're doing a lot of reading! You must not be working fulltime or you just read all the rest of the time!
23:09 Mara Durotriges: Sure, I'll read Massie's Tiberius.  After the serious ones and the Troy.  So I guess that's going to be January.
23:09 Torrey Philemon: Well how about if we concentrate on Song of Troy next and move on to Tiberius around the turn of the year.....?
23:09 Mara Durotriges: Yes, there are a lot of RPers here but also lots and lots of serious research readers.  You just have to watch for them
23:10 Torrey Philemon: Yes, we both have a similar sense of timing. I have the most free time in late December and early January myself because I have a 3 week break in my teaching schedule then. A good time for reading.
23:10 Mara Durotriges: That sounds fine to me
23:11 Torrey Philemon: (While we were talking I ordered Massie's Augustus already through Abebooks for $7 through Small World Books - so if you see that one, be forewarned, it's taken! However Book Link (via Abe) also has copies for $13.99/
23:12 Torrey Philemon: Well it sounds like we've got our next direction planned.....
23:14 Mara Durotriges: Yes, I'll get my book ordered here shortly
23:15 Torrey Philemon: So shall we say goodnight? (and go back to watching CNN and the election madness <-: )
23:16 Mara Durotriges: yes, good night then.  I know you must be nuts from the lack of election results
23:17 Torrey Philemon: Yes this suspense is hard..... I was at the Kennedy party half the night last night with other Gore everything's up in the air........Goodnight!
23:18 Mara Durotriges exits...
23:18 Torrey Philemon exits...

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