The Firebrand by Marion Zimmer Bradley Chat Transcript





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21:49 - Torrey Philemon
       Curious about the relationship of words here - Khryse, Chryseis and Christ as in Jesus Christ. If the root means golden, what does Christ mean? Is there a connection.
21:49 - Morgana Flavius
       That's interesting, Zoe. And do you recall that Bradley also used a god/priest characterization to explain Aeneas birth by Aprhodite?
21:50 - Torrey Philemon
       Did either of you ever read the Sibyl by Par Lagervist? A very haunting book about a Delphic oracle.
21:50 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, Morgana, I do remember that
21:51 - Torrey Philemon
       Remind me, Morgana. What god/priest characterization for Aeneas.
21:51 - Morgana Flavius
       hum... as far as I know, Christ comes from Greek and means "the blessed one"... nothing to do with golden...
21:52 - Torrey Philemon
       Bradley's portrayal of Cassandra reminds me a lot of the woman in the Sibyl. It's worth reading....
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394702409/windweavwebandwi/
21:53 - Morgana Flavius
       In the Firebrand, Bradley says that Aeneas's mother was actually a priestess of Aphrodite, with whom Anchises (Aeneas' father) fell in love with. This priestess was so beautiful, that she was taken by Aphrodite herself.
21:53 - Torrey Philemon
       Ah, I didn't remember that.....about Aeneas's mother and Aphrodite.
21:54 - Torrey Philemon
       I've been reading about the "dark Apollo." Apparently the Apollo of this time - pre-Homer is not the Apollo of classical times. There was a split later of Apollo into Apollo and Dionysus but the original Apollo had the wildness of Dionysus and was a daimon of the woods and underworld.
21:55 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, remember that Aeneas is the son of Aphrodite, both for Greeks and Romans. Specially Julius Caesar gave a lot of publicity to this myth, because the Julian family was said to be descendant from Aeneas' son, Iulus and therefore... descendants of Aphrodite.
21:56 - Torrey Philemon
       Right, Aeneas even encounters his mother Aphrodite several times in the Aeneid.....but I don't think there's much description of the circumstances of his conception. How Aphrodites mated with Anchises.
21:57 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I was very interested in this dicotomy about Apollo. In that god's mythology, there's a perfect line drawn between Apollo, the god of the serpents and of future telling (during the Trojan times) and the Apollo that flourished in the classic period, when he's more related to the arts, the sun, the beauty.
21:57 - Torrey Philemon
       What strikes me most about Cassandra's dilemma is that she is sworn to Apollo but he really doesn't have much to offer her. He seems to be a usurper of women, using them for his own purposes only. He is not a caring god who really cares for his devotees.
21:58 - Morgana Flavius
       The story of Aphrodite and Anchises is a well known myth, Torrey. We saw it in the Metamorphoses too. Remember when Hephaistos caught in his net Aphrodite "having fun" with Ares? Her punishment was that she would fall in love with the first mortal she saw. And the (lucky) guy was Anchises.
21:58 - Torrey Philemon
       This Apollo seems to be more the god of the dark than the god of the sun!
21:59 - Torrey Philemon
       Right, I do remember that, Morgana. I just wasn't sure if Aphrodite mated with Anchises AS HERSELF or in DISGUISE, through the vehicle of another woman.
22:00 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, according to Bradley, Apollo was a most uncompassionate god...
22:01 - Torrey Philemon
       And Cassandra clearly states that she doesn't want EITHER his anger or his love. She doesn't want to be chosen by him.
22:01 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Bradley is portraying Apollo in his dark aspect since she has her affinity for the goddesses. Most of the deities have light and dark aspects. Apollo's is supposed to be that Python in Delphi, for one
22:02 - Morgana Flavius
       Traditional mythology says that Aphrodite mated with Anchises as herself. The replacement by a priestess is Bradley's creation. And, contrary to what I felt about McCullough's liberties with myths, I think that Bradley had a good idea. Probably, most myths about gods/goddesses and mortal men/women appeared after a priest of said god/goddess mated with a non-religious person... *s*
22:02 - Torrey Philemon
       His killing of the python seems to be an important event in regard to the triumph of patriarchy. That was Greece though....I wonder how it happened in Troy and nearby regions.
22:03 - Torrey Philemon
       That's plausible, Morgana. Matings with priests/priestesses who represented the god.
22:04 - Morgana Flavius
       Right, Zoe. And Bradley seems to hint that gods like Apollo were gods worshiped by the people who new iron... which means, people who followed the patrilineal system and were about to defeat the existing civilizations based on bronze, like Troy and the Greeks that fought Troy too.
22:05 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, probably what happened in Greece, happened in Asia Minor (Troy and adjacent cities) too: they were defeated by the "iron men".
22:05 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, Zoe, we do have to remember Bradley's biases against the gods! (this is reminding me of the white race/europeans settling the americas and wiping out the native religion)
22:06 - Zoe Xanthippos
       or the Christians wiping out native beliefs everywhere
22:06 - Morgana Flavius
       Exactly!
22:08 - Zoe Xanthippos
       or those Muslims who just beat up those huge Buddha statues in Afganistan
22:08 - Torrey Philemon
       On another note, Morgana, we're back to the corporate life (the classical Apollo) vs. the instinctual life (Earth mother).
22:08 - Morgana Flavius
       Which brings us to Bradley's most famous book: The Mists of Avalon, which is nothing more than the story of how the goddess religions was whiped out by christianity in England. Too bad for Guinever that in Bradley's version she was one of the pro-christians, Torrey.
22:09 - Torrey Philemon
       I had a hard time reading that book because I was so annoyed with her Guenevere. I guess I got through my adolescence watching the Camelot movie and didn't want my romantic fantasy destroyed! <-:
22:09 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, that made me so sad, Zoe! When I saw those mutilated Buddah's in Afganistan!
22:11 - Morgana Flavius
       And I, on the contrary, got so fascinated by Bradley's Morgane, that I took her nick name and, for a brief period of my life (right after reading the Mists) got very interested in magic/goddess/wicca (you name it) practices. I even made some very interesting amulets for myself! *s*
22:11 - Torrey Philemon
       People use religion as an excuse for their atrocities.....just as the Greeks used Helen as an excuse for their own greed.
22:11 - Morgana Flavius
       I saw the mutilated statues on CNN site this morning...
22:14 - Torrey Philemon
       Some people when threatened strike out, destroy....(I'm thinking now of those who are responding to the demise of AS with hostility and targetting of others)
22:14 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I'm thinking about that too, Torrey.
22:16 - Morgana Flavius
       BTW, Zoe, I liked your post at the Real Grieving Board, where you wrote the lyrics of P.Simon's tune about memories. I like that song so much that I listened to it this morning (only read that board this morning) and I kept imagining you, Torrey and I holding hands and singing it together for AS...
22:16 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Why does a religion feel so threatened by people who believe differently? And why must believers try to make everyone else belive what they believe? But it goes on and on,
22:17 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Thank you, Morgana. And I particularly enjoyed your post on your memories at AS, and your history there
22:17 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes I appreciate your posts Zoe and Morgana's too. I read them earlier today. This demise of A.S. is bringing out who people really are when under stress.....and some of us are bonding more deeply while others try to destroy or self-destruct.
22:18 - Torrey Philemon
       I will write a memories post soon.....and would like to lead a ritual for us March 29 in which we share our fondest memories.
22:18 - Morgana Flavius
       Ah... yes... maybe I should have posted the "history" part at Torrey's original board, but it was so "polluted" that I didn't see much difference. On a second thought, I decided that at least Torrey's Grieving board was not so crowded... And I will post there, when I have another surge of grief.
22:18 - Torrey Philemon
       It takes courage for both of you to post your own sensitive feelings on a board where there's a lot of trashing going on.
22:19 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, I decided that I won't have time to read whatever they write on Pomponia's board after my post. *s*

CRASH

23:16 - Torrey Philemon
       i'm eager to hear more about what you learned about the amazons, Zoe. That's a subject that always interested me. I forgot that the hour show on the Amazons on A&E was on last week too....they only have it on about once a year and I had planned to watch it.
23:17 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I've been reading the Graves multiple versions of everything and haven't sorted it all out yet. I was really busy this week and instead of taking today to think things through, I just kept putting more in, info deprived.
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       It's a documentary on what's known about the Amazons. Did you see it? (It's either A&E or the History Channel, I forget which)
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       Oh I forgot, you're not a tv watcher!
23:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I've also read too many versions of the novels, and am getting them confused with each other
23:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I do have a question though: I thought that Priam got to be king of Troy when the heroes came and kidnapped Hesione. His father and brothers were alive when the lion killers didn't get paid for their work and took Hesione and killed everyone but Polites who became Priam. Now Hesione only gets kidnapped when Cassandra is about 12.
23:18 - Torrey Philemon
       yes, the danger of reading fictional interpretations and nonfiction is that we do get them confused!
23:19 - Torrey Philemon
       just heard from morgana. she had a bad crash.
23:20 - Zoe Xanthippos
       It's probably pretty much all fiction - Homer is not an historian, he's a bard. The first fiction! But I've been jumbling the archaeology and the Graves and the novels. My mind is boggled and my eyes are crossing
23:20 - Zoe Xanthippos
       that's two of you - I guess I'm next
23:21 - Torrey Philemon
       I'm afraid I don't know enough how Priam got to be king. The site you referenced earlier makes some reference to it, having to do with Hecuba. There are probably different interpretations....
23:22 - Torrey Philemon
       Ok, I need to differentiate several sources then. Four. Classical poetry and myth. Classical nonfiction/history. Contemporary nonfiction interpretation. Contemporary fiction. Four different approaches....
23:23 - Torrey Philemon
       Homer may be fiction but he's in a different category than modern fiction because he's an original source.....
23:23 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And I meant Podarces, not Polites
23:24 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I don't know that we need to split the posting site. I just need to clean up my brain and organize it.
23:24 - Torrey Philemon
       In your studies....do you have a sense that the religion of Troy differed substantially from Greece...and that the patriarchal religions were slower to gain a foothold? There must be a difference.
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       No,I don't mean split the posting site. I just mean that I differentiate between the different kinds of reading. I view the modern fiction more as fantasy.....but then fiction like Massie's Tiberius was so convincing it's hard to remember what Massie wrote and what the biographers wrote.....
23:26 - Zoe Xanthippos
       the Priam part is here:http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar//Troy.html
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       Are you getting tired, Zoe? I am and have to prepare for my Monday teaching for an hour or two before I can go to bed. Just want to give Morgana a chance to return. She's trying to.
23:27 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I think the part of the world that Troy was in was slower to change, though I'm not sure how this worked if the men of the gods came from the north. The north of what, exactly? Unless, it's the north of the west and Troy is more east...Needing a compass here
23:28 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I am somewhat tired and I have to go be nice to mothers and children tomorrow :(
23:29 - Torrey Philemon
       Morgana may have crashed again. Icq won't go through to her again. Let's give her a few more minutes....at least just to say goodbye.
23:29 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, we don't want to just disappear on her
23:31 - Torrey Philemon
       I see that there is a Priam page at Greek Myth Link. Did you check it out? http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar//Priam1.html
23:32 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I also got sidetracked onto Minoan art, the frescos and did reading on that, and Arthur Evans and ...I want to read the Euripedes plays this week on Troy. I still have Salaska's book to write up and present to everyone - have written up my notes on about 1/2, and one more to read - Hillary Bailey's Cassandra, Princess of Troy.
23:33 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I read Priam 1 but it didn't give enough on what I was trying to talk about with the Hesione/ Herakles part
23:33 - Torrey Philemon
       Just heard from Morgana. She crashed again and is trying one more time.
23:34 - Zoe Xanthippos
       she's really having a bad night. I hope she hasn't got a real computer problem, only a temporary internet one
23:34 - Torrey Philemon
       One of the things I mentioned in one of my posts was the two different interpretations of Paris meeting Helen. ONE, he was trying to get Hesione back. TWO, he was trying to fulfill the promise Aphrodite made to him to have Helen. Two very different motives. Bradley's version the first doesn't have him consciously going just to get Helen.
23:35 - Torrey Philemon
       I wonder if the attitude Bradley's Priam expressed initially about Hesione was true of the time. He figured, well, she's been kidnapped, that's ok, at least she's got a husband and we don't have to pay a dowry. Let it be.
23:36 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I sort of think he used the Hesione reason, and the invite from Menelaus, as an excuse to go check out his prize of Helen. I mean he had to get funding, i.e.ships, crew, etc. from Priam so he certainly wouldn't tell him he was going to kidnap some powerful Greek's wife.
23:37 - Torrey Philemon
       Did you read Molinaro's Autobiography of Cassandra? And speaking of Euripides....I would really like to study some of the Euripides plays in depth. I know the Iphigenia plays well but want to reread them. Don't know the Hecuba and Andromache plays though .... let's read them!
23:38 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes getting Hesione back wasn't a priority until he had another reason for going. Sounds like she was just an excuse.....
23:38 - Zoe Xanthippos
       no, haven't seen that one, the Molinaro. I've got the plays in my bag to take with me tomorrow.
23:39 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And didn't McCullough drape Paris with some blood crime he had to get purified for?
23:40 - Zoe Xanthippos
       and since he'd helped Menelaus with the bones or whatever for his plague, Menelaus offered to purify him as a thank you?
23:40 - Torrey Philemon
       I absolutely love the Molinaro book I read last fall. It was just wonderful......The New Moon with the Old Moon in her Arms
23:41 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I kept seeing that one, the Moon one, and it's on it's way (I pushed the button...)
23:41 - Torrey Philemon
       by the way, please let us know what books you read that you most recommend, Zoe....... that's right, McCullough had Paris going to seek purification of some kind. Which wasn't so believable....why Menelaus?
23:42 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I seem to remember that the Cassandra one wasn't out yet though
23:42 - Torrey Philemon
       oh it's been out for awhile on the Amazon England site I think but is very expensive.....
23:43 - Zoe Xanthippos
       because he was already in Troy and it was convenient, Paris had to go to some other king for purification and having been stuck up in the mountains with the herds, he probably didn't know a lot of kings
23:43 - Torrey Philemon
       years ago I read the Christa Wolf book on Cassandra and didn't like it very much. I thought I had read the Firebrand, but hadn't..... just the Wolf book.
23:44 - Torrey Philemon
       I also have the Jungian psychology book the Cassandra Complex, which is the Jungian interpretation of Cassandra (like the Oedipus complex is to Oedipus)
23:44 - Zoe Xanthippos
       You've got to read the Helen one I trashed and debate me. There are a few ok things, I guess. It's short.
23:45 - Zoe Xanthippos
       what is her complex? never being believed?
23:45 - Torrey Philemon
       I will write about that when I write about the dark site od Apollo.... yes, I will probably read that Cargill book since I bought it and don't have many other Troy books to read!
23:45 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I don't think Morgana is going to get back to us
23:46 - Torrey Philemon
       I;ll explain more when I'm awake enough to think clearly! Am fading fast......Yes, I don't think Morgana will return so perhaps we should say goodnight. She told me if she's not back in 5 minutes that she might not get back and it's been about 5 minutes.
23:46 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Diane Thompson at the NOVCC site gives it credence, maybe I've missed a myth or two. But...
23:46 - Torrey Philemon
       Anyway, perhaps we can finish up the Firebrand sometime in April after D-Day.
23:47 - Torrey Philemon
       I mean to look at more of Diane's site. She seems to have some really good Troy links. Too bad she couldn't make it tonight. She probably would have had a lot to contribute.
23:47 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Yes, let's quit. I'm a cauldron of confusing info. April will be fine and I am always fooling with the Goddess stuff, that's part of what I was after when I got in AS in the 1st place
23:48 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Yes, I'd like to hear why she put Cargill on her site.
23:48 - Torrey Philemon
       great....,more goddess stuff in the spring.....so goodnight Zoe! may you be spared the crashing computer.....
23:50 - Zoe Xanthippos
       goodnight, Torrey, enjoyed it as always

 

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