FIREBRAND CHAT continued

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EXCERPTS FIREBRAND CHAT June 10, 2001
Chat two, part two
continued from previous page

13:50 - Morgana Flavius
	One of the links in the site "On the Trail of the Amazons" is about the "African Amazons". There I saw some relations between the Kandake and MZB's Imandra.

13:50 - Torrey Philemon
	I think our current ecological crisis is a result of the decline of Demeter worship! Most countries are no longer agriculturally-based, so the earth goddesses are no longer revered, and the earth no longer respected......

13:51 - Torrey Philemon
	Someone ought to start an ecological political movement named for Demeter.....

13:52 - Morgana Flavius
	Well, many ecological movements are named after Gaia, the earth goddess that existed before Zeus and his allies killed the Titans.

13:52 - Zoe Xanthippos
	I think it's hard for modern people to connect with earth centered deities of any sort because we all live in houses. Not houses that are open to the weather, but climate controlled, artifically lit ones. We've changed night into day and are not too hot or cold (and I'm generalizing here, of course) The hum from all the appliances even drowns out the bird and insect noises.

13:53 - Morgana Flavius
	For me, the myth of the "clash of the Titans" is exactly the story of the passage from a Gaia/feminine/earthbound society to the Zeus/masculine/skybound society of the classic Greeks up to our days.

13:53 - Torrey Philemon
	Demeter seems to be a later expression of Gaia, part of the patriarchal god system.

13:53 - Torrey Philemon
	And Apollo killing the serpent at Delphi and taking over the oracle.

13:54 - Morgana Flavius
	Exactly, Torrey. I would say it goes like this: Gaia - Cybelle - Demeter - Ceres (this final one a very mild goddess, when compared to the powerful Gaia and Cybele)

13:55 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, Apollo's another story about the matrilinear vs patrilinear society, Torrey.

13:55 - Torrey Philemon
	And unfortunately Ceres got even weakened more today - and relegated to CEREAL!!

13:55 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Interesting that the Roman version WAS so watered down...

13:56 - Torrey Philemon
	Ceres - cereal - associated only with grain - which most people today don't think of as the foundation of life, as people in ancient times did.

13:56 - Torrey Philemon
	Morgana crashed and is on her way back now.

13:56 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Now people tend to think meat is the foundation of life. Hmmm

13:57 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Meat and drink, meat and potatoes, meat on the subject

13:57 - Torrey Philemon
	No, people think MONEY is the foundation of life !!! Who is the god of money? Not just Pluto, there is another.....

13:58 - Torrey Philemon
	Who is the god of meat? Zeus as the bull,or the Minotaur? <-:

13:58 - Zoe Xanthippos
	how did that happen? Women were the grain providers, men the meat providers...

13:59 - Zoe Xanthippos
	I think they were all gods of meat! They all kept getting large animals sacrificed for them. But Klytemnestra, offering milk at her altar...I'm thinking out loud here, don't know where I'm headed

13:59 - Torrey Philemon
	I'd really like us to have a chat later in the summer on the transition from goddesses/female values etc. to patriarchy, perhaps with each of us doing our own readings then sharing.... I don't understand how the power shifted either....though obviously in other traditions such as Hebrew/Old Testament, the patriarchal focus was there from almost the start.

14:02 - Zoe Xanthippos

I've always had this idea that once animals were domesticated and crops were sown and men didn't have to go hunt large wild animals to survive that they all got bored. And before, when the women stayed in the cave or whatever, they sort of 'ran' whatever beliefs there were but once the men got bored, they needed a thrill and so they set their gods up to be like they wished themselves to be. Clear as mud, right?

14:03 - Zoe Xanthippos
	And since they didn't have the large wild things to dominate any more, they picked on the ladies

14:04 - Morgana Flavius
	Sorry, I seriously crashed. Back again now.

14:05 - Torrey Philemon
	Physically, I think men always had an advantage over women, didn't they. Simone Weil's fascinating essay on The Iliad or the Poem of Force (written during the first years of Hitler in Germany) were about the prevalence of force and what happens to a society/culture where force is the primary value, and one's compassion/empathy is lost in the process......

14:05 - Torrey Philemon
	Zoe, it's your turn (to crash next <-: )

14:06 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Thank you so much for offering me a turn but I think I'll pass

14:08 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, I think that the passage from matrilinearity to patrilinearity is a fascinating one. And I think that there are some reliable historical sources to enlighten us on that. We just have to find them. ;-)

14:09 - Morgana Flavius
	And I am also fascinated on the Judaico/Christian version of this passage and the latter's attempt to wipe out completely any reference to a female power in the "beginning of times".

14:10 - Morgana Flavius
	I think I would always find sometime to chat about this subject, if "someone" ('looking' at Torrey) takes the iniative and brings about some 'itching' questions/comments on the theme. ;-)

14:11 - Zoe Xanthippos
	S Yes, we do seem to do better when we're 'led'!

14:11 - Morgana Flavius
	This theme is "irresistible" for me.

14:15 - Torrey Philemon
	Well, thanks for appreciating my leadership....in regard to the Judaeo/Christian theme too I will probably have more to say on that this summer.....as the "free course" I get this summer is on the transition from Judaism to Christianity....But personally my interest here is the pre=Genesis Judaic tradition preserved in gnosticism.

14:15 - Morgana Flavius
	LOL

14:16 - Torrey Philemon
	Obviously though the subject of transition from "feminine" values and religion to masculine values and religion is of real interest to all three of us.....

14:17 - Morgana Flavius
	Hum, Torrey. Pre-genesis judaic tradition is also fascinating. Specially if we can trace it back to the Summerians, an incredible people who disappeared from history long before the Trojan demise.

14:18 - Morgana Flavius
	Hey, I'm hungry too! I think that when we get hungry for knowledge, our body gets hungry for food too. Can't separate Gaia from Ceres (cereal)!

14:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
	I've been reading around on this theme for years. It's hard to stay focused though and one trail leads to 10 others and I get hopelessly muddled trying to follow all of them. Need a chart or something...

14:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
	That must be it Morgana! LOL!

14:18 - Torrey Philemon
	I'm intrigued by the influence of early Hebrew culture on early Greek culture and vice versa. Haven't found much information on it... But in Nagy's class, the theme of hero cult with the hero taking on the suffering of the people and redeeming them through his death obviously had an influence on early Christianity.

14:18 - Morgana Flavius
	I feel EXACTLY like you about it Zoe!

14:19 - Torrey Philemon
	Well put, Morgana! The craving for the earthbound feminine -- today we connect to "her" mostly through FOOD!

14:19 - Zoe Xanthippos
	And all of the trails are equally interesting too!

14:19 - Morgana Flavius
	It's hard to stay focused, but it is fascinating anyway.

14:20 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Maybe I'd better go pray at my refrigerator door again...g

14:20 - Torrey Philemon
	About the confusion in reading on this topic Zoe.....for me, some of it is trying to figure what is pure speculation and what is considered to be true history. I'm not sure if any of this is really considered history. Everything about goddess times/worship etc. comes across as speculation. I find myself hungry for facts, substance, something SOLID.

14:20 - Morgana Flavius
	Well, ladies, it's almost 3:30pm for me and I DIDN'T have lunch yet! I guess it explains a lot... Should we stop here or are we going to our inevitable "silliness time"?

14:21 - Torrey Philemon
	Interesting, the salad I made was Greek salad, and I was in the kitchen breaking up a piece of feta cheese and sprinkling it all over the lettuce..... (Is there such thing as a Roman salad? There is ROMAINE lettuce <-: )

14:21 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Since so much of the role of the feminine in religion is PRE history, Pre-writing, it is difficult to do much but interpret and compare the various similarities in ALL the stories. And there are so many stories

14:22 - Torrey Philemon
	I have to get ready to leave the house in 10 minutes.....shall we just wind down for a few more minutes?

14:22 - Torrey Philemon
	There's one more topic I'd like to raise about the Firebrand....Achilles.

14:22 - Morgana Flavius
	Ok for me. Although your feta cheese salad made me even more hungry, Torrey! yummy!

14:23 - Morgana Flavius
	Ah, Achilles, yes... the core of the Iliad and Nagy's course.

14:24 - Zoe Xanthippos
I have some interesting figurines for you:
	http://www.civilization.ca/membrs/archaeo/paleofig/pal03eng.html

14:24 - Torrey Philemon
	I learned the importance of Achilles meeting with Priam in the Iliad. How Achilles got in touch with his own father/son feelings and as a result softened, connected with Priam, and his own humanity again. A significant turning point. Bradley completely blew this though.

14:24 - Morgana Flavius
	Torrey seemed to have disliked MZB's approach to him, making him look like a really despicable character.

14:25 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, it seems that Bradley chose to keep the contemporary view of Achilles: that of a moody, ridiculous "hero".

14:26 - Morgana Flavius
	And it also felt bizarre the hatred towards Agamemnon, from Cassandra, when he treated her with consideration.

14:27 - Torrey Philemon
	Achilles truly had some bad traits, but according to Bradley he ONLY had bad traits. No redeeming features. I don't know why she had to make him so spiteful with Priam.

14:27 - Torrey Philemon
	Interesting site, Zoe. I'll look at it later.

14:28 - Morgana Flavius
	But I think that in the Agamemnon case, MZB could not make her Cassandra be sympathetic towards a man that had commanded the army who destroyed her family, city, and took her liberty. No matter how "nice" he behaved towards her.

14:28 - Torrey Philemon
	I think we're overdue for a really good movie about the Trojan War from the Bradley perspective! (Though I do recommend the Helen of Troy movie made in the 50s. It's not bad).

14:29 - Morgana Flavius
	Oh my...! Balzi Rossi! That place brings me a lot of memories!!

14:29 - Torrey Philemon
	True, Morgana, but her attitude would have seemed more believable if Bradley had portrayed Agamemnon as crueler and more inconsiderate (after all he was portrayed in the Iliad as quite a haughty entitled character).....and maybe Achilles as a little more human!

14:30 - Zoe Xanthippos
	The other title of the Iliad was The Rage of Achilles. I think Homer was trying to show his rage and the result of it ( Patrokles' death) Once Achilles had gotten his revenge by killing Hector, Homer wanted Achilles to feel remorse and 'change' somehow before his own death. MZB only saw the villain side of him, which is hard to ignore

14:31 - Zoe Xanthippos
	You've been there Morgana?!

14:31 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, I agree Torrey. Achilles has just a "black" side in the Firebrand, no gray areas, which make a more human and believable character.

14:31 - Torrey Philemon
	Where is Balzi Rossi? Around Turkey?

14:31 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, Zoe, I've been to Balzi Rossi. In a very good company... sigh

14:32 - Zoe Xanthippos
	ah yes...sigh smile

14:32 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Italy

14:32 - Morgana Flavius
	No, Balzi Rossi is in northwest Italy, near the French border. A loving coastal area.

14:33 - Zoe Xanthippos
	loving coastal area? The web page didn't say anything about that...

14:33 - Torrey Philemon
	A LOVING coastal area. Hmm. I'm surprised you "saw" any of it. LOL!

14:33 - Morgana Flavius
	It is almost the continuation into Italy of the French "Cote D'Azur".

14:34 - Morgana Flavius
	Balzi Rossi is near the Mediterranean sea on the west coast of Italy.

14:34 - Zoe Xanthippos
	(she's ignoring our crudeness, Zoe whispers to Torrey)

14:35 - Torrey Philemon
	(She asked for it, Torrey whispers to Zoe. Maybe she'd enjoy looking at the pictures from one of my ebay auctions.... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1437466498 )

14:36 - Morgana Flavius
	Oh my, Torrey! LOL!!!!!

14:37 - Morgana Flavius
	Where did you get that from?

14:37 - Zoe Xanthippos
	oh dear. what an interesting figurine. mine weren't quite so...complete..

14:37 - Torrey Philemon
	On another note, I bought out the remainders of Achilles in Vietnam, since it's going out of print....and have listed them on Ebay too..... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1437535433

14:37 - Torrey Philemon
	All right, here's my secret. I buy remaindered books at several sites. One of my favorite is http://www.HamiltonBook.com Another is http://www.bookcloseouts.com

14:38 - Morgana Flavius
	Remainders of Achilles in Vietnam? What's that supposed to mean?

14:38 - Zoe Xanthippos
	That's an interesting comparison. - Achilles and Vietnam I mean

14:38 - Zoe Xanthippos
	LOL! Morgana. That IS what it said

14:40 - Torrey Philemon

Remainders means books that are heavily discounted before they go out of print. Achilles in Vietnam is a book about combat trauma, which compares Achilles of the Iliad to soldiers in Vietnam and other wars who suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome and experienced out of control rage due to the traumas of war. It got a lot of attention when it came out, discussing the Iliad in terms of contemporary war and the psychology of soldiers traumatized by combat duty.

14:41 - Morgana Flavius
	Ah, thanks for the explanation, Torrey. It was the "remainders" that escaped my comprehension.

14:41 - Torrey Philemon
	There's a whole web site about Achilles in Vietnam which I referenced in the book description. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1437535433

14:42 - Torrey Philemon
	Here in the US, Morgana, many bookstores have remainder tables where you can buy books for only a few dollars during the last month they are in print. Sometimes you get really good deals. The two sites I mentioned on remainders are two great online sites for buying remainders. Sometimes you find some really great deals....books listed at Amazon.com for $30 which are about $3 on remainder.

14:43 - Morgana Flavius
	The Vietnam war is something that seems to haunt Americans almost like the holocaust seems to get to Germans' nerves... But it doesn't mean much to to Brazilians, I guess...

14:43 - Torrey Philemon
	Well I have to go in a few moments, and Morgana needs to eat...... (I imagine that Brazilians have some wars in their 20th century history. Do you? - Torrey revealing her ignoranceof South American history)

14:44 - Morgana Flavius
	No, no wars in the 20th century in Brazil... we seem to be missing a lot of fun... (lol, black humor joke)

14:46 - Morgana Flavius
	Yes, let's go. And let's keep in mind a future chat on one of our favorite themes: cereals vs. beef... I mean... hum... I better go get some food...

14:46 - Torrey Philemon
	Amazing, I didn't realize that your country didn't have any wars in the last century..... I wonder what effect that has....... And the US has been protected too, to the extent that we haven't had wars ON OUR OWN SOIL.

14:46 - Zoe Xanthippos
	Well, maybe we can start you a war, Morgana. What sort would you like? We seem to do them all. (more black humor)

14:46 - Torrey Philemon
	Yes Demeter vs. Zeus or the Minotaur. Cereal vs. Beef. So how about a matriarchy/patriarchy discussion sometime in July. We can decide the date later.

14:47 - Morgana Flavius
	LOL Zoe! I guess I'll pass.

14:47 - Zoe Xanthippos
	That sounds good to me Torrey. My schedule is always pretty flexible

14:47 - Torrey Philemon
	Got to go...Nice talking to both of you again! I'll post some of my comments on TRP at some point, hope you will too....... I'd particularly like to hear more about Zoe's readings on the Amazons etc.

14:48 - Morgana Flavius
	Well, actually some Brazilian soldiers did go to Italy in the end of the WW II, to help Americans get rid of some enemy soldiers. But it was a minor thing, not any close to something like the Vietnam war.

14:48 - Zoe Xanthippos
	I will try to write more. (tying string around finger as a reminder not to procrastinate)

14:49 - Zoe Xanthippos
	And I've enjoyed this as always.

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