The Firebrand by Marion Zimmer Bradley Chat Transcript





March 18, 2001 FIREBRAND CHAT

20:36 - Torrey Philemon
       Chat on the Firebrand starting soon after 8:30 tonight March 18.
20:38 - Torrey Philemon
       Haiku for the day:
Listen! Hear her words!
Cassandra the prophetess
Speaks of the future.
20:38 - Torrey Philemon
       Ah Zoe is here! Yes, I have a huge file of user names and passwords on my computer. It helps keep them all straight (and here I was singing haiku to myself when Zoe showed up)

20:39 - Zoe Xanthippos
       oh tell me Cassandra
what do you see?
will the war never end?
will we never be free?
20:39 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yeah, I've got all those here too, had to get it out
20:40 - Torrey Philemon
       now that's a nice poem (though not a haiku - haikus are 5 syllables, 7 syllables, 5 syllables). I like the will we never be free line.
20:40 - Zoe Xanthippos
       got a Hecuba link for you
Who was Hecabe's Mother?
http://members.aol.com/hlabadjr/HECABE.HTM
20:40 - Torrey Philemon
       also I'm glad you posted on the serpent goddess......Ah, must check out that link!
20:40 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Off the cuff poets can't count
20:41 - Torrey Philemon
       <-: Gee, there's a lot to read on that site. (Morgana icqed me - she's on her way)
20:42 - Zoe Xanthippos
       According to Grimal, one of the origins for Hecuba is Thrace. Also where Amazons came from in some stories. Tiny link but...
20:43 - Torrey Philemon
       How can Hecuba the daughter of Priam if she is his wife? (That source refers to her as his daughter)
20:44 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And snakes don't seem to be goddess specific - Apollo, for one, had them at his oracle.
20:44 - Morgana Flavius
       Hello, ladies!
20:44 - Torrey Philemon
       "I Polydorus, a son of Hecuba the daughter of Cisseus and of Priam." "
20:45 - Torrey Philemon
       Hello Morgana!
20:45 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Hi Morgana!
20:46 - Torrey Philemon
       Oh I read the sentence wrong. A son of Hecuba (the daughter of Ciseus) AND of Priam not A son of Hecuba (the daughter of Ciseus and of Priam). Gee.
20:46 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I've seen this Hecuba, daughter of Priam. Maybe only a coincidence of names.
20:46 - Morgana Flavius
       Did anyone check the Greek Mythology Link on Hecuba?
20:47 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes I did check the Greek Mythology link on Hecuba. Zoe also just gave a great link http://members.aol.com/hlabadjr/HECABE.HTM
20:48 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I opened the link Zoe gave in another window. Hope I don't crash...
20:48 - Torrey Philemon
       Zoe just posted recently on the serpent mother at TRP and then I posted on Hecuba, the Amazons and the Great Goddess. We seem to excel in last minute posting!
20:48 - Torrey Philemon
       My guess is that Diane Thompson isn't coming. She hasn't responded to my emails the past few days.
20:49 - Morgana Flavius
       I was very impressed with the connection of Hecuba and the Amazons. Certainly an interesting idea of Bradley.
20:49 - Zoe Xanthippos
       we are procrastinators
20:49 - Morgana Flavius
       LOL! Yes, we are Zoe!
20:49 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I've read so many things now I have trouble organizing my thoughts
20:50 - Morgana Flavius
       Ut-oh... the Greek Mythology Link is giving me an error message...
20:50 - Torrey Philemon
       I don't easily organize my thoughts Zoe. I just take notes on different sheets of paper and title each and then put them in order later. I can't keep anything straight in my mind; it's all in writing. (The Greek Myth link person said you have to put www. in the address now for the site to work, MOrgana)

20:52 - Morgana Flavius
       For a while, I played with the idea that the Greeks of the 12th and 11th century BC (when Mycenae and Crete flowrished and the Trojan War supposedly took place) were a matriarchal society.

20:52 - Torrey Philemon
       I don't know enough yet about this subject (want to learn more ) but what I've read so far leads me to believe matrilineal not necessary matriarchal.....

20:53 - Morgana Flavius
       Ah, thanks Torrey. I had forgotten that www in front of the url.
20:53 - Torrey Philemon
       It's hard to know what sources are trustworthy.
20:54 - Morgana Flavius
       Exactly, Torrey. At that long extinct "Cassandra..." thread in AS, I learned that this migh be the case: they were a matrilineal society.
20:54 - Torrey Philemon
       Would you all like to do some reading and have a discussion on the matriarchy etc. issue after the Firebrand.
20:55 - Zoe Xanthippos
       from what I've read, this time period was a time of transition. Goddess worship was being overcome by the male pantheons and while they still had goddesses, they were protrayed under the domination of some male Great God. This happened in many civilizations, there are shards of this in the Old Testament as well
20:55 - Morgana Flavius
       For instance, Agamemnon was the king of Mycenae (spelling?) because he married Clitemnestra, who had the right over that city, through her mother Leda. And Sparta went to Helen because of Helen's father Tyndareus. And Menelau then was the king of Sparta because of his marriage to Helen.
20:55 - Torrey Philemon
       Is there any way to uncover that thread, Morgana? Like through your own posts from your domus, if you back to the right month? (then you link to the next post)
20:56 - Torrey Philemon
       I haven't read enough yet of the site Zoe just gave us but it seems to suggest that Priam married Hecuba because of her heritage and that it gave him the right of kingship.
20:56 - Morgana Flavius
       I have not tried that Torrey, because I simply dont remember what month/year that thread was on...
20:57 - Torrey Philemon
       There's something very dynamic about these transitional times in history (herstory), don't you think, Zoe? The tension of the old vs. the new.
20:58 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Yes, any period of great and basic change, such as religious focus is interesting
20:59 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And this change seems to be a theme of MZB's - there was a lot of the same sort of thing, philosophy wise, in Mists of Avalon
20:59 - Torrey Philemon
       I wonder what books are now regarded as the most authoritative in regard to the matrilineal to patriarchal issues at that time. There seems to be two camps on the subject: the feminists who want to be believe in matriarchies and the scholars who debunk them.
21:00 - Morgana Flavius
       My overall macro-view about those ancient times is: during the Archaic period (Crete, Mycenae, Troy), the Greece was dominated by people who followed the matrilineal system. This was the bronze age. Then came the people from the north, the "savage" Dorians, who already used the iron weapons. They finished with Mycenae, Crete, etc. And their culture was very primitive and... patrilineal!
21:00 - Torrey Philemon
       What do you two want to focus on in regard to the Firebrand? Any specific questions or comments?
21:01 - Morgana Flavius
       Torrey just icqed me saying she's crashed...
21:02 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Gimbutas is a good source, based on archaeological research,though lots of her peers don't agree with her
21:02 - Morgana Flavius
       Hum... I would like to discuss the possible connection of Hecuba and Cassandra with the Amazons.
21:02 - Morgana Flavius
       And what does Gimbuta say, Zoe?
21:04 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I'm inclined to think MZB made that part up. I found the diet part - where they didn't eat bread and drank mare's milk referenced in Graves to Somebody or other, a classical writer, can't remember, which leads me to think this part was well researched though a fantasy
21:04 - Zoe Xanthippos
       and her explanation of the Kentaurs made a lot of sense to me
21:05 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I am inclined to think that it was an original idea (or creative fantasy) of MZB. But heck...! Couldn't it be so? *s*
21:06 - Morgana Flavius
       I don't remember what she said about the centaurs.
21:06 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Gimbutas has written tons of books, most of them out of print, on the Goddess societies. The one I have is mostly photos of artefacts, not much explanation. She definitely believes that the goddess was the first religion (s) and that women ran things at some point
21:07 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Of course it could be, the custom of fostering children with relatives or others is very old and continued well into recorded history
21:08 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I spent a lot of time trying to find a reference to Imandra with no luck
21:08 - Morgana Flavius
       Another interesting "fantasy" of MZB is that Cassandra and Paris were twins...
21:08 - Zoe Xanthippos
       She reminded me of Cleo's Kandake
21:09 - Morgana Flavius
       Ah, right! Imandra! Yes, yes! She does remind me of the Kandake.
21:10 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Somebody else made Paris and Cass twins...who...?
21:11 - Torrey Philemon
       Hi again. That was a bad crash. The black screen of death. I had to reboot.
21:11 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Black screen of death! I like that one - though I don't like to see it here
21:11 - Torrey Philemon
       According to Euripides, Cassandra cried KILL HIM as soon as Paris was born. She was many years older.
21:13 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes. Some say she's older, some say she's younger, some say they're twins...
21:13 - Torrey Philemon
       Some other source says that Cassandra and Helenos were twins. I think Bradley created a believable story though...even with Cassandra and the Amazons.
21:15 - Torrey Philemon
       Zoe, you read a lot about the Amazons. Were they believed to be in regions close to where the Kandake was? I think of them mostly around Libya / Turkey (Troy I believe was Turkey)
21:15 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I think so too, Torrey. She made a lot of things up, but they are very believable and... why not?
21:16 - Torrey Philemon
       She doesn't take liberties with history and myth the way that McCullough did, so she's more convincing.
21:17 - Zoe Xanthippos
       in the Africa section,she doesn't mention that area, just North Africa
21:17 - Morgana Flavius
       They say the Amazons came from Thrace. Now, your dear friend Morgana, for other reasons, did a lot of research about Thrace. It was a region north of Troy, still Turkey (in our current days), but across the straits of Bosphorus & Dardanel.
21:17 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, my impression is that the Kandake was closer to central Africa, far down the Nile. (Do you know where there's a good online map on this area, Morgana?)
21:19 - Torrey Philemon
       I'm curious about what is known in regard to Penthesilea and Priam's people. All I know is what I typed in my post....that she went to Priam for purification and in gratitude became his ally.
21:19 - Morgana Flavius
       See the Greek Mythology Link on the Amazons, Torrey. At the bottom of the page there's a map (not the best one, but will give you an idea).
21:20 - Morgana Flavius
       I remember that in the Firebrand, Bradley said that the Amazons where Cassandra went to live were from Colchis. Now, this is far to East of Troy, and far from Thrace or North Africa.
21:20 - Torrey Philemon
       ahh, yes, I printed out the Amazons pages but didn't remember the map. (I'm still debating getting the Greek Mythology link cdrom because I'm afraid the site will disappear again. but then again, there's always HTTrack......!)
21:21 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, where is Colchis. I thought that was in Greece. Wasn't there a Greek drama in Colchis too....was it Antigone?
21:21 - Morgana Flavius
       Colchis was the land where Medea came from.
21:22 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Colchis is thought to be around the Black Sea, in Georgia
21:22 - Torrey Philemon
       Ahh, that's right. Medea. Good memory.
21:22 - Morgana Flavius
       Colchis is on the other side of the Black Sea. Take a look at the map you printed. There's a red circle, showing where the GML says the Amazons came from. Draw a straight line up the circle and you'll be in Colchis.
21:24 - Morgana Flavius
       Maybe a society with warrior women was common in several regions of the known world in ancient times. That's why there are so many places where the Amazons came from.
21:24 - Torrey Philemon
       I printed out the first 6 Amazons pages but not the map. Will have to get it again. (I am looking forward to reading the drama about Penthesilea).......
21:25 - Morgana Flavius
       I remember I researched a lot about the Amazons, Colchis, Medea and the connections of those lands/people with Crete, Minos and Pasiphae. They say Pasiphae (remember her from Metamorphoses? She's the one who fell in love with the white bull) and Medea were sisters.
21:26 - Torrey Philemon
       There's a magnificent out of print novel by John Gardner on Jason and Medea. One of the most beautifully written books I've ever read. A novel in poetry
21:27 - Morgana Flavius
       Anyway, the most common version (and I think this what Nagy says in his lectures) is that the Amazons that fought on Troy's side came from Thrace. Thrace was famous for having good horses and brave warriors.
21:27 - Morgana Flavius
       And Thrace was just across the strait from Troy.
21:30 - Zoe Xanthippos
       There are a lot of images from various cultures showing warrior women. I think men were fascinated and horrified by them at the same time,
21:31 - Zoe Xanthippos
       So a good story teller would be sure to include some Amazons in his tale, which would also account for the geographical ranges
21:34 - Morgana Flavius
       Anyhow... who was Penthesilea? Why she decieded to fight on the Trojan side? And... was she a female version of Achilles?
21:35 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I think she just came for the purification from Priam and decided to fight. That supposes that the family connection in Firebrand is only a story
21:36 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, the myth is that she mistakenly killed her sister Hippolyta in an accident and was full of remorse. She came to Priam to be purified, and apparently it was an Amazon ethic to do battle as a means of purification too. She respected Priam, and agreed to be his ally.
21:36 - Zoe Xanthippos
       and I don't think Achilles had a female version, his traits seem all male to me.
21:37 - Torrey Philemon
       Nagy pointed out that the name Penthesilea and the name Achilles mean the same thing in greek. Both refer to sorrow. Penthos and Akhos (ache).
21:39 - Torrey Philemon
       Morgana, is there any relation between the name Amazon river and the Amazons?
21:40 - Morgana Flavius
       Bradley also says that Andromache came from Colchis and that she was the daughter of Imandra. Now, that was pushing things a bit too far, in my opinion...
21:41 - Zoe Xanthippos
       the name comparison is interesting. Oh, I meant to say. I read that 'lipless' (Achilles) referred to his never having suckled at his mother's breast. Also that there are many Achilles around the area of the Meditteranean, local heroes with their own shrines
21:41 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, there's certainly a relation between the name of our mighty river and the warrior women!
21:41 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, why would the Amazons (like Hecuba) have given up their life to marry? And Bradley's Andromache seemed to take too easily to the role of subservient wife.
21:42 - Zoe Xanthippos
       didn't the Europeans find remnants of female societies in South America when they first came?
21:42 - Torrey Philemon
       Say more Morgana. What is the source of the name of the mighty river?
21:42 - Morgana Flavius
       I agree with you on Andromache accepting too easily the role of subservient wife, Torrey. Couldn't be an Amazon.
21:43 - Zoe Xanthippos
       as in any day, all women don't value the same things and are quite easily swept off their feet by some man and his promises. Life may have looked a lot easier in a palace than on the back of a horse. Until one loses freedom, it's not always appreciated
21:44 - Morgana Flavius
       The reason for the name of the Amazon river (actually it the correct name is Amazonas, which means a lot of Amazons) is that when the Spanish navigators first sailed through the rivers, they saw a group of indians at the banks. These indians were wild and warrior like, but they were long hair on their heads and had no hair on their bodies... so they were taken by women! And warrior women are who? The Amazons, of course! *s*
21:45 - Torrey Philemon
       I was also surprised that Bradley made Chryseis so bratty and promiscuous! Also about her name. Her name means "Golden". Because of my long blonde hair, that's the nickname my friends give me. Golden. But I don't want to identify with Chryseis.
21:45 - Torrey Philemon
       Wow, Morgana! That's interesting.
21:46 - Torrey Philemon
       I was also trying to find information on Khryse but all I could find was that he tried to get his daughter back by negotiating with the Achaians.
21:47 - Morgana Flavius
       Yeah... it's very interesting. But as far as I know, there were no legends about women dominated societies here in South America. And, at least here, in the Amazonian region (north of S.America), the indigenous people never rode horses.
21:47 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, I hadn't heard about women warriors in South America.
21:48 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I think Bradley used Khryse as a vehicle for Cassandra's interaction with Apollo and embellished him for that purpose. Though I would think that priest rape would be common in the shrine setting
21:48 - Morgana Flavius
       Poor Spanish navigators... didn't have that info by the time they discovered the great river... *s*
21:48 - Torrey Philemon
       I agree, Zoe. Kryse as a vehicle for Apollo.
21:49 - Torrey Philemon
       Curious about the relationship of words here - Khryse, Chryseis and Christ as in Jesus Christ. If the root means golden, what does Christ mean? Is there a connection.
21:49 - Morgana Flavius
       That's interesting, Zoe. And do you recall that Bradley also used a god/priest characterization to explain Aeneas birth by Aprhodite?
21:50 - Torrey Philemon
       Did either of you ever read the Sibyl by Par Lagervist? A very haunting book about a Delphic oracle.
21:50 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, Morgana, I do remember that
21:51 - Torrey Philemon
       Remind me, Morgana. What god/priest characterization for Aeneas.
21:51 - Morgana Flavius
       hum... as far as I know, Christ comes from Greek and means "the blessed one"... nothing to do with golden...
21:52 - Torrey Philemon
       Bradley's portrayal of Cassandra reminds me a lot of the woman in the Sibyl. It's worth reading....
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394702409/windweavwebandwi/
21:53 - Morgana Flavius
       In the Firebrand, Bradley says that Aeneas's mother was actually a priestess of Aphrodite, with whom Anchises (Aeneas' father) fell in love with. This priestess was so beautiful, that she was taken by Aphrodite herself.
21:53 - Torrey Philemon
       Ah, I didn't remember that.....about Aeneas's mother and Aphrodite.
21:54 - Torrey Philemon
       I've been reading about the "dark Apollo." Apparently the Apollo of this time - pre-Homer is not the Apollo of classical times. There was a split later of Apollo into Apollo and Dionysus but the original Apollo had the wildness of Dionysus and was a daimon of the woods and underworld.
21:55 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, remember that Aeneas is the son of Aphrodite, both for Greeks and Romans. Specially Julius Caesar gave a lot of publicity to this myth, because the Julian family was said to be descendant from Aeneas' son, Iulus and therefore... descendants of Aphrodite.
21:56 - Torrey Philemon
       Right, Aeneas even encounters his mother Aphrodite several times in the Aeneid.....but I don't think there's much description of the circumstances of his conception. How Aphrodites mated with Anchises.
21:57 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I was very interested in this dicotomy about Apollo. In that god's mythology, there's a perfect line drawn between Apollo, the god of the serpents and of future telling (during the Trojan times) and the Apollo that flourished in the classic period, when he's more related to the arts, the sun, the beauty.
21:57 - Torrey Philemon
       What strikes me most about Cassandra's dilemma is that she is sworn to Apollo but he really doesn't have much to offer her. He seems to be a usurper of women, using them for his own purposes only. He is not a caring god who really cares for his devotees.
21:58 - Morgana Flavius
       The story of Aphrodite and Anchises is a well known myth, Torrey. We saw it in the Metamorphoses too. Remember when Hephaistos caught in his net Aphrodite "having fun" with Ares? Her punishment was that she would fall in love with the first mortal she saw. And the (lucky) guy was Anchises.
21:58 - Torrey Philemon
       This Apollo seems to be more the god of the dark than the god of the sun!
21:59 - Torrey Philemon
       Right, I do remember that, Morgana. I just wasn't sure if Aphrodite mated with Anchises AS HERSELF or in DISGUISE, through the vehicle of another woman.
22:00 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, according to Bradley, Apollo was a most uncompassionate god...
22:01 - Torrey Philemon
       And Cassandra clearly states that she doesn't want EITHER his anger or his love. She doesn't want to be chosen by him.
22:01 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Bradley is portraying Apollo in his dark aspect since she has her affinity for the goddesses. Most of the deities have light and dark aspects. Apollo's is supposed to be that Python in Delphi, for one
22:02 - Morgana Flavius
       Traditional mythology says that Aphrodite mated with Anchises as herself. The replacement by a priestess is Bradley's creation. And, contrary to what I felt about McCullough's liberties with myths, I think that Bradley had a good idea. Probably, most myths about gods/goddesses and mortal men/women appeared after a priest of said god/goddess mated with a non-religious person... *s*
22:02 - Torrey Philemon
       His killing of the python seems to be an important event in regard to the triumph of patriarchy. That was Greece though....I wonder how it happened in Troy and nearby regions.
22:03 - Torrey Philemon
       That's plausible, Morgana. Matings with priests/priestesses who represented the god.
22:04 - Morgana Flavius
       Right, Zoe. And Bradley seems to hint that gods like Apollo were gods worshiped by the people who new iron... which means, people who followed the patrilineal system and were about to defeat the existing civilizations based on bronze, like Troy and the Greeks that fought Troy too.
22:05 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, probably what happened in Greece, happened in Asia Minor (Troy and adjacent cities) too: they were defeated by the "iron men".
22:05 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, Zoe, we do have to remember Bradley's biases against the gods! (this is reminding me of the white race/europeans settling the americas and wiping out the native religion)
22:06 - Zoe Xanthippos
       or the Christians wiping out native beliefs everywhere
22:06 - Morgana Flavius
       Exactly!
22:08 - Zoe Xanthippos
       or those Muslims who just beat up those huge Buddha statues in Afganistan
22:08 - Torrey Philemon
       On another note, Morgana, we're back to the corporate life (the classical Apollo) vs. the instinctual life (Earth mother).
22:08 - Morgana Flavius
       Which brings us to Bradley's most famous book: The Mists of Avalon, which is nothing more than the story of how the goddess religions was whiped out by christianity in England. Too bad for Guinever that in Bradley's version she was one of the pro-christians, Torrey.
22:09 - Torrey Philemon
       I had a hard time reading that book because I was so annoyed with her Guenevere. I guess I got through my adolescence watching the Camelot movie and didn't want my romantic fantasy destroyed! <-:
22:09 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, that made me so sad, Zoe! When I saw those mutilated Buddah's in Afganistan!
22:11 - Morgana Flavius
       And I, on the contrary, got so fascinated by Bradley's Morgane, that I took her nick name and, for a brief period of my life (right after reading the Mists) got very interested in magic/goddess/wicca (you name it) practices. I even made some very interesting amulets for myself! *s*
22:11 - Torrey Philemon
       People use religion as an excuse for their atrocities.....just as the Greeks used Helen as an excuse for their own greed.
22:11 - Morgana Flavius
       I saw the mutilated statues on CNN site this morning...
22:14 - Torrey Philemon
       Some people when threatened strike out, destroy....(I'm thinking now of those who are responding to the demise of AS with hostility and targetting of others)
22:14 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I'm thinking about that too, Torrey.
22:16 - Morgana Flavius
       BTW, Zoe, I liked your post at the Real Grieving Board, where you wrote the lyrics of P.Simon's tune about memories. I like that song so much that I listened to it this morning (only read that board this morning) and I kept imagining you, Torrey and I holding hands and singing it together for AS...
22:16 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Why does a religion feel so threatened by people who believe differently? And why must believers try to make everyone else belive what they believe? But it goes on and on,
22:17 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Thank you, Morgana. And I particularly enjoyed your post on your memories at AS, and your history there
22:17 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes I appreciate your posts Zoe and Morgana's too. I read them earlier today. This demise of A.S. is bringing out who people really are when under stress.....and some of us are bonding more deeply while others try to destroy or self-destruct.
22:18 - Torrey Philemon
       I will write a memories post soon.....and would like to lead a ritual for us March 29 in which we share our fondest memories.
22:18 - Morgana Flavius
       Ah... yes... maybe I should have posted the "history" part at Torrey's original board, but it was so "polluted" that I didn't see much difference. On a second thought, I decided that at least Torrey's Grieving board was not so crowded... And I will post there, when I have another surge of grief.
22:18 - Torrey Philemon
       It takes courage for both of you to post your own sensitive feelings on a board where there's a lot of trashing going on.
22:19 - Morgana Flavius
       Well, I decided that I won't have time to read whatever they write on Pomponia's board after my post. *s*

CRASH

23:16 - Torrey Philemon
       i'm eager to hear more about what you learned about the amazons, Zoe. That's a subject that always interested me. I forgot that the hour show on the Amazons on A&E was on last week too....they only have it on about once a year and I had planned to watch it.
23:17 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I've been reading the Graves multiple versions of everything and haven't sorted it all out yet. I was really busy this week and instead of taking today to think things through, I just kept putting more in, info deprived.
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       It's a documentary on what's known about the Amazons. Did you see it? (It's either A&E or the History Channel, I forget which)
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       Oh I forgot, you're not a tv watcher!
23:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I've also read too many versions of the novels, and am getting them confused with each other
23:18 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I do have a question though: I thought that Priam got to be king of Troy when the heroes came and kidnapped Hesione. His father and brothers were alive when the lion killers didn't get paid for their work and took Hesione and killed everyone but Polites who became Priam. Now Hesione only gets kidnapped when Cassandra is about 12.
23:18 - Torrey Philemon
       yes, the danger of reading fictional interpretations and nonfiction is that we do get them confused!
23:19 - Torrey Philemon
       just heard from morgana. she had a bad crash.
23:20 - Zoe Xanthippos
       It's probably pretty much all fiction - Homer is not an historian, he's a bard. The first fiction! But I've been jumbling the archaeology and the Graves and the novels. My mind is boggled and my eyes are crossing
23:20 - Zoe Xanthippos
       that's two of you - I guess I'm next
23:21 - Torrey Philemon
       I'm afraid I don't know enough how Priam got to be king. The site you referenced earlier makes some reference to it, having to do with Hecuba. There are probably different interpretations....
23:22 - Torrey Philemon
       Ok, I need to differentiate several sources then. Four. Classical poetry and myth. Classical nonfiction/history. Contemporary nonfiction interpretation. Contemporary fiction. Four different approaches....
23:23 - Torrey Philemon
       Homer may be fiction but he's in a different category than modern fiction because he's an original source.....
23:23 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And I meant Podarces, not Polites
23:24 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I don't know that we need to split the posting site. I just need to clean up my brain and organize it.
23:24 - Torrey Philemon
       In your studies....do you have a sense that the religion of Troy differed substantially from Greece...and that the patriarchal religions were slower to gain a foothold? There must be a difference.
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       No,I don't mean split the posting site. I just mean that I differentiate between the different kinds of reading. I view the modern fiction more as fantasy.....but then fiction like Massie's Tiberius was so convincing it's hard to remember what Massie wrote and what the biographers wrote.....
23:26 - Zoe Xanthippos
       the Priam part is here:http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar//Troy.html
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       Are you getting tired, Zoe? I am and have to prepare for my Monday teaching for an hour or two before I can go to bed. Just want to give Morgana a chance to return. She's trying to.
23:27 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I think the part of the world that Troy was in was slower to change, though I'm not sure how this worked if the men of the gods came from the north. The north of what, exactly? Unless, it's the north of the west and Troy is more east...Needing a compass here
23:28 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I am somewhat tired and I have to go be nice to mothers and children tomorrow :(
23:29 - Torrey Philemon
       Morgana may have crashed again. Icq won't go through to her again. Let's give her a few more minutes....at least just to say goodbye.
23:29 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, we don't want to just disappear on her
23:31 - Torrey Philemon
       I see that there is a Priam page at Greek Myth Link. Did you check it out? http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar//Priam1.html
23:32 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I also got sidetracked onto Minoan art, the frescos and did reading on that, and Arthur Evans and ...I want to read the Euripedes plays this week on Troy. I still have Salaska's book to write up and present to everyone - have written up my notes on about 1/2, and one more to read - Hillary Bailey's Cassandra, Princess of Troy.
23:33 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I read Priam 1 but it didn't give enough on what I was trying to talk about with the Hesione/ Herakles part
23:33 - Torrey Philemon
       Just heard from Morgana. She crashed again and is trying one more time.
23:34 - Zoe Xanthippos
       she's really having a bad night. I hope she hasn't got a real computer problem, only a temporary internet one
23:34 - Torrey Philemon
       One of the things I mentioned in one of my posts was the two different interpretations of Paris meeting Helen. ONE, he was trying to get Hesione back. TWO, he was trying to fulfill the promise Aphrodite made to him to have Helen. Two very different motives. Bradley's version the first doesn't have him consciously going just to get Helen.
23:35 - Torrey Philemon
       I wonder if the attitude Bradley's Priam expressed initially about Hesione was true of the time. He figured, well, she's been kidnapped, that's ok, at least she's got a husband and we don't have to pay a dowry. Let it be.
23:36 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I sort of think he used the Hesione reason, and the invite from Menelaus, as an excuse to go check out his prize of Helen. I mean he had to get funding, i.e.ships, crew, etc. from Priam so he certainly wouldn't tell him he was going to kidnap some powerful Greek's wife.
23:37 - Torrey Philemon
       Did you read Molinaro's Autobiography of Cassandra? And speaking of Euripides....I would really like to study some of the Euripides plays in depth. I know the Iphigenia plays well but want to reread them. Don't know the Hecuba and Andromache plays though .... let's read them!
23:38 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes getting Hesione back wasn't a priority until he had another reason for going. Sounds like she was just an excuse.....
23:38 - Zoe Xanthippos
       no, haven't seen that one, the Molinaro. I've got the plays in my bag to take with me tomorrow.
23:39 - Zoe Xanthippos
       And didn't McCullough drape Paris with some blood crime he had to get purified for?
23:40 - Zoe Xanthippos
       and since he'd helped Menelaus with the bones or whatever for his plague, Menelaus offered to purify him as a thank you?
23:40 - Torrey Philemon
       I absolutely love the Molinaro book I read last fall. It was just wonderful......The New Moon with the Old Moon in her Arms
23:41 - Zoe Xanthippos
       yes, I kept seeing that one, the Moon one, and it's on it's way (I pushed the button...)
23:41 - Torrey Philemon
       by the way, please let us know what books you read that you most recommend, Zoe....... that's right, McCullough had Paris going to seek purification of some kind. Which wasn't so believable....why Menelaus?
23:42 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I seem to remember that the Cassandra one wasn't out yet though
23:42 - Torrey Philemon
       oh it's been out for awhile on the Amazon England site I think but is very expensive.....
23:43 - Zoe Xanthippos
       because he was already in Troy and it was convenient, Paris had to go to some other king for purification and having been stuck up in the mountains with the herds, he probably didn't know a lot of kings
23:43 - Torrey Philemon
       years ago I read the Christa Wolf book on Cassandra and didn't like it very much. I thought I had read the Firebrand, but hadn't..... just the Wolf book.
23:44 - Torrey Philemon
       I also have the Jungian psychology book the Cassandra Complex, which is the Jungian interpretation of Cassandra (like the Oedipus complex is to Oedipus)
23:44 - Zoe Xanthippos
       You've got to read the Helen one I trashed and debate me. There are a few ok things, I guess. It's short.
23:45 - Zoe Xanthippos
       what is her complex? never being believed?
23:45 - Torrey Philemon
       I will write about that when I write about the dark site od Apollo.... yes, I will probably read that Cargill book since I bought it and don't have many other Troy books to read!
23:45 - Zoe Xanthippos
       I don't think Morgana is going to get back to us
23:46 - Torrey Philemon
       I;ll explain more when I'm awake enough to think clearly! Am fading fast......Yes, I don't think Morgana will return so perhaps we should say goodnight. She told me if she's not back in 5 minutes that she might not get back and it's been about 5 minutes.
23:46 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Diane Thompson at the NOVCC site gives it credence, maybe I've missed a myth or two. But...
23:46 - Torrey Philemon
       Anyway, perhaps we can finish up the Firebrand sometime in April after D-Day.
23:47 - Torrey Philemon
       I mean to look at more of Diane's site. She seems to have some really good Troy links. Too bad she couldn't make it tonight. She probably would have had a lot to contribute.
23:47 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Yes, let's quit. I'm a cauldron of confusing info. April will be fine and I am always fooling with the Goddess stuff, that's part of what I was after when I got in AS in the 1st place
23:48 - Zoe Xanthippos
       Yes, I'd like to hear why she put Cargill on her site.
23:48 - Torrey Philemon
       great....,more goddess stuff in the spring.....so goodnight Zoe! may you be spared the crashing computer.....
23:50 - Zoe Xanthippos
       goodnight, Torrey, enjoyed it as always

 

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