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Chat Transcript
page two of two
| 373 lines of discussion for
Sep. 12, 1998 |
15:05 Asterix
Flavius: Hi, I'm back [ok, I wasn't really gone]. Looking up
my Herodotus 9approx 500 BCE. He said the woman stealing started
before Helen when the Phoenicians took Io to Egypt. Interestingly
enough, the relevant passage on Helen reads "The Asiatics, when the Greeks
ran off with their women, never troubled themselves about the matter: but
the Greeks, for the sake of a single Lacedaemoniangirl, collected a vast
armament, invaded Asia, and destroyed the kingdom of Priam." Seems
they thought the Greeks over-reacted.
15:05 Belay
Fabius: Back again... Yes Helen was unhappy in Troy
15:06 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Achilles does act like a ruthless omnipotent god, whose
making everyone suffer because he hasn't received the honor that is his
due.
15:06 RobertusI
Marius: Helen at one point is a dutiful daughter in law to Hecuba and
in other places she weeps when she sees the Greek heros before the wall
s of troy. I think "Helen" was an excuse for a pirate expedition.
15:07 Torrey
Philemon: Asterix, I doubt if the war was entirely about Helen. Supposedly,
Troy was a key sea route, with many riches, and the Greeks wanted to rule
it. To some extent, the whole Helen story may have been just the excuse
they needed for plunder.
15:07 Belay
Fabius: Astreix: Could helen be just the spontaneus which kindled the
flame of war not the cause. Just like modern day world war I started by
an assasination of a duke
15:07 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
15:08 Torrey
Philemon: Hey Robertus, we posted the same thing at the same time.
I agree: pirate expedition.
15:09 Belay
Fabius: Torrey: I agree your with your point. The war is rooted in
the economy. Troy was a keeper of the gates so to say in her strategic
position to control all commerce
15:09 Ricardex
Cornelius: Sorry, i was out of the chat, AS woes!
15:09 Torrey
Philemon: Countries often make highblown excuses for war to hide their
real power and wealth motives...
15:09 David
Marius: One thing that is unclear (okay one of the things) is why the
war at this point gets so merciless. Early in the war the Greeks had taken
prisoners and ransomed them. This can be shown by both Agammenon's treasures
and by the repeated action of surrender. But at this point, surrended result
in death.
15:09 RobertusI
Marius: Or an ancient Gulf of Tonkin resolution. I guess we havent
changed that much. I guess we all think alike Torrey!
15:09 Torrey
Philemon: BTW, I found a neat site on Achilles...called Achilles in
Vietnam. http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/shay.htm
15:09 Ricardex
Cornelius: And the Greeks are certainly interested in lot.
15:10 Asterix
Flavius: >Torrey - "Supposedly"? Yeah it's pretty well situated
for the Aegean, Black Sea, Asia Minor. Likely to have been economic
at root. [I think I posted something like that on a thread earlier].
15:11 Belay
Fabius: David: I think the war was bloody and long because it is a
war between equals. Equal strategis and equipment as well as resources
15:11 flavius Horatius enters...
15:11 Torrey
Philemon: Do you all see some fascinating comparisons between the Trojan
War and the Vietnam war?
15:12 Ricardex
Cornelius: I think ten years and the number of friends killed makes
war harder. As time goes by everyone has a personal reason to angry, after
all at start Helen is not anything to bulkof Greeks on personal level.
but ten yearsand you lose alot of friends.
15:12 flavius Horatius enters...
15:12 RobertusI
Marius: The fact that Priam charges some sort of toll to all ships
passing through the Dardennelles is mentioned in the Iliad. Another very
good reason to go to war over an abduction.
15:12 Ricardex
Cornelius: Tghe War of Roses got more bitter as years went by.
15:12 Ricardex
Cornelius: Americancivil war did too.
15:13 Asterix
Flavius: >Ricardex - don't forget Ireland and the English.
15:13 Belay
Fabius: Robertus: that is the core reason for the war and Helen was
the match that kindled it. It is all about commerce
15:13 Torrey
Philemon: It seems that in the Iliad both sides just want it to be
over but don't know how to end it. And the Greeks don't feel ok about leaving
with nothing to show for all the years and lives lost.
15:14 David
Marius: Belay. I also think it is almost impossible to take a fortified
city wih enough food and its own water supply. That's why sieges here and
in medieval Europe (until gunpowder) went on so long.
15:15 Belay
Fabius: David: AGreed. If I was a military I think siege is a stupid
and a last alternative
15:15 gnaeus
Junius: Zeus is the greatest god because h has the greatest power.
A mortal with the greatest power appoximates Zeus and is ahero. Force underliesit
all. This i not a Christian poem.
15:15 Asterix
Flavius: >Torrey - thanx for the link. Sounds interesting, I'll
have to check it out later.
15:15 RobertusI
Marius: Im not shure if the fighting took ten full years. Was there
a war season like in mievil times?
15:15 diopan
Nestor: I think its just that the longer the war the harder it gets
to get out
15:15 David
Marius: Torrey, I don't know that they have nothing. There is all that
treasure that has been collected from ransomes.
15:16 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Asterix, and I'm interested in pursuing sources about
where Helen really was...
15:16 Belay
Fabius: gnaeus: Zeus was more like the arbiter unless provoked
15:16 Asterix
Flavius: >gnaeus - certainly not a Christian poem, but then there's
little reason for it to be.
15:17 Belay
Fabius: Gnaues: why do you think Christianity has any resemblance here.
these are different times
15:17 Torrey
Philemon: Zeus seemed more like the Hamlet hero to me. His loyalties
weren't clear...He sided with the Greeks but had some devotion to the Trojans...
15:17 David
Marius: On commerce, are you just reading it or are you basing your
conclusions from evidence in the poem.
15:18 Belay
Fabius: Torrey: nice way to describe Zeus
15:18 Asterix
Flavius: >Torrey - he has sons on both sides
15:18 Torrey
Philemon: True, David, they collected treasures, but if they didn't
fully defeat Troy, it was hard to justify all that was lost in the process.
15:18 flavius Horatius exits...
15:18 Ricardex
Cornelius: I think Zeus does recognize that Troy is being destroyed
for reasons that are often unjustice, the petty hate of gods, the
acts of Paris in regard to Helen
15:19 RobertusI
Marius: One of the most interesting thing about the Iliad is the relationship
between Zeus and Hera. This poem was not written in a society that valued
women much.
15:19 Asterix
Flavius: Also, Hamlet's loyalties were clear to the reader. It
just took him forever to act on them.
15:19 Torrey
Philemon: Good point, Asterix. Sons on both sides could contribute
to ambivalence!
15:19 Belay
Fabius: David: we can not see from the poetry of Iliad that commerce
has much to do with it but this is the poetry part. But other serious works
including the excavations lead to that conclusion about the core cause
of the war
15:20 Torrey
Philemon: Amen, Robertus. Women are treated entirely like possessions...
15:20 Torrey
Philemon: I also think that the Iliad appeals much more to men than
women...and it's my guess that most of you here are male!
15:20 Shaquilat
Sergius: True, Robertus. It would not be good to be a woman in
bronze age Greece.
15:20 David
Marius: Yes, but notice that they are several ways that indicate that
women allways get what they want.
15:21 Shaquilat
Sergius: How so?
15:21 Belay
Fabius: Torrey: I think the greek concept and role of women are much
better than most other societies until recently. Look at the role of the
Female Gods
15:21 Torrey
Philemon: Yeah, I'm not so convinced that the women were getting what
they wanted!
15:21 Asterix
Flavius: Hector and Andromache have about the healthiest relationship
[at least, according to present-day standards], but Hector knows what will
happen when [not if] Troy loses. Also with Astynyax.
15:22 gnaeus
Junius: My point is that force and powr establish the auhority of Zeus,
Agaemnon and Achilles. Not morally responsible behaviour.
15:22 David
Marius: Belay, this may need to continue off-line but what excavations
would show (much less prove that)
15:22 Torrey
Philemon: True, the female gods do have power...Interesting that the
Greeks perceived them that way, when their own women didn't have so much
power...
15:22 Belay
Fabius: How can anyone get what they wanted unless they are in a positoin
of absolute who can overrule other's will and need
15:22 Ricardex
Cornelius: Athena is a more powerful goddess then Ares.
15:23 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, Hector and Andromache's relationship is touchingly portrayed...
15:23 RobertusI
Marius: You're right David. Women are dipicted as schemeing or totally
loyal. The only exceptions are the Goddesses. They could be a remnant of
a Matriarchal society that was displaced by the Mycenians. I'm thinking
of Crete in particular.
15:23 Asterix
Flavius: What abou the issue of personal responsibility in Homer?
The gods seem to relieve humans of that nagging problem. [The devil made
me do it defense]
15:24 Belay
Fabius: David: I think we have to open a chat room to ourselves one
day and fight it out ...*smiles*
15:24 Ricardex
Cornelius: Yes, the even help with killing.
15:24 Shaquilat
Sergius: Richardex, Athena was more powerful than Ares because she
was smarter.
15:24 RobertusI
Marius: Count me in Belay
15:25 Ricardex
Cornelius: True, Ares was not a very bright guy by nature.'
15:25 Asterix
Flavius: Interesting to compare and contrast Andromache and Penelope
and Helen
15:25 Belay
Fabius: Shaquilat: also because greeks especially Athenian think so
of some talented women :
15:25 Ricardex
Cornelius: You guys can fight in here some day, just seel tickets so
I get income (-:
15:26 Torrey
Philemon: I'm just laughing to myself in regard to what the Greeks
and Greek gods would have though of the Clinton/Monica melodrama....Yet
even today moral responsibility may be an empty cloak hiding power motives...
15:26 Belay
Fabius: Robertus: you are in as far as I am concerned. Shall we call
it battle of the Knights of Homer? :)
15:26 Ricardex
Cornelius: A note: Upper clas Spartan women had great wealth and more
status then liberal Athens many claim, so.
15:26 Shaquilat
Sergius: Belay, I don't know what you mean. (I'm not a Greek scholar)
15:27 Belay
Fabius: Torrey: I think Clinton is imitating Zesu but clinton has no
power
15:27 Torrey
Philemon: Asterix, it seems to me that sometimes the Greeks blame the
gods and sometimes they take responsibility. Neither Achilles or Agamemnon
blamed the gods for their actions in regard to Chryseis and how they handled
their anger.
15:28 RobertusI
Marius: Ricardex is that classical Sparta or Mycenian. They seem to
be very different places. ...Good name Belay!
15:28 Shaquilat
Sergius: Andromache, Penelope, and Helen all have passive rolex vis
a vis the men in their lives.
15:28 Moira Cumhaill enters...
15:29 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
15:29 Torrey
Philemon: Most women in Greek myths have passive roles...unless they're
potrayed as monstrous Medusas and Medeas...
15:29 David
Marius: Yes, but I think there is a place where Agamennon questions
Zeus who had nodded his head when the sacrifices were made before the expedition
started
15:29 RobertusI
Marius: I don't know how passive Penelope was. She showed as much gile
as Odysseus in her dealings with the sutors.
15:30 Asterix
Flavius: Ah, must go. It's been fun. Penelope wasn't all
that passive, just quiet but strong.
15:30 Asterix Flavius exits...
15:31 Ricardex
Cornelius: Waht did people think of th efinal chapthers Patroclus to
the return of Hector's body, did the stroy flow well?
15:32 Torrey
Philemon: I didn't have trouble with the ending, Ricardex. Why did
you think it was anticlimactic?
15:33 Ricardex
Cornelius: The batle between Hector/Achilles know and was not verydramatic
or detailed, the games were more detailed.
15:33 David
Marius: On a historical basis (and without checking) could this action
be the result of the "sea people" pressing on the Mycenean states and pushing
them out. Eventually settlers will go to Cyprus and Palestine.
15:33 Ricardex
Cornelius: I just hoped for a grand fight scene with some excitement.
15:34 Ricardex
Cornelius: The battle scens between soome characters was more detailed
and held you, we know Hector is toast,but was the fight over quick or what?
15:34 Torrey
Philemon: We all experience what we read according to our own interests.
For me, the Iliad was about the transformation of Achilles' rage, and the
meeting with Priam was the turning point...not the killing of Hector. Hector's
death was the external climax; the meeting with Priam the internal one.
15:34 RobertusI
Marius: The problem with the ending of the Iliad is that there is none.
The actual story continues on with the death of Achilles, the Horse, Loocoon,
the sack and the return. The story if the Trojan war is exponentially bigger
than the Iliad.
15:35 David
Marius: Yes, the fight was something of a let down but you knew the
fix was in so?
15:35 gnaeus
Junius: O the contrary Agamemnon does assert that Zeus was responsible
for filling him wih the rage which md him take Briseis.
15:35 Ricardex
Cornelius: Modern llit woul dhave had more drama in the scene.
15:36 Torrey
Philemon: Again, the book was about ACHILLES' RAGE and the Trojan war
was the stage. The Iliad was not focused on telling the whole war story,
but on telling an episode in Achilles' life during the war...
15:36 RobertusI
Marius: David I believe the Myceneans are the sea people.
15:37 Torrey
Philemon: Yes, gnaeus, sometimes the heros take personal responsibility
and sometimes they blame the gods! The gods are an easy excuse when they
can't own their actions.
15:38 David
Marius: On ending, that is why the subtitle on the rage of Achilles.
If that is what the story is about that story is finished. And we are told
enough so we know the rest. Death of Achilles, destruction of Troy etc.
All set out by fate......
15:38 RobertusI
Marius: Torrey is right. The story in it's final form was written down
at the beginning of the classical period.
15:39 Torrey
Philemon: Somewhere I read that Achilles didn't want to fight from
the very beginning. That he hid out in woman's clothes so as not to have
to go to war. Was this Thetis' doing? Anyone know the source?
15:40 David
Marius: RobertusI, I don't think that the sea people are any one group
(part of the problem of identifying them) As they swept over the Mediterranean
world they picked up many others.
15:41 Torrey
Philemon: Back to your comment Ricardex, I'm now agreeing with you
that there could have been more drama in the Priam/Achilles scene. If it's
such an important turning point, it could have been portrayed more powerfully.
15:41 Ricardex
Cornelius: I saw that story in the iliad.
15:41 RobertusI
Marius: Achilles was reluctant to fight because he knew he would die
at troy. This reluctance is also evident in Odyseus hiding from the Mycenean
Envoys.
15:43 RobertusI
Marius: All of the connecting stories are assumed by Homer to be known
by the listener. Epic poetry was the TV of it's day.
15:44 Ricardex
Cornelius: Yes. It was the soap opera of the day, for sure.
15:44 RobertusI
Marius: David we should get together and discuss the sea peoples some
time.
15:45 gnaeus
Junius: The meeting of Achilles and Piam was staged by Zeus and Hermes.
It represents their power o control the destnies of men.
15:45 David
Marius: RobertusI, but as Fagles points out in his notes, at times
Homer added his own touch (at least as we know the stories that have survived).
15:45 Ricardex
Cornelius: Priam had great courage to go there.
15:46 Torrey
Philemon: Was it typical of warfare at the time that when the commander
wasn't fighting - because of injury or refusal...that all his troops likewise
withdraw from battle? It seemed strange to me that so many men didn't fight
simply because their leader didn't. They didn't join other battalions temporarily...
15:46 RobertusI
Marius: I have to log off. I'll catch the rest in the transcript.
15:47 David
Marius: But notice that both Achilles and Priam were given their instructions
from the Gods. Presumably they could say NO. But at what cost?
15:47 RobertusI Marius exits...
15:47 gnaeus
Junius: To think of the gods as an easy excuse is a ,modern view which
disregads the belief of the Greeks in the power of the gods.
15:47 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well, in some ways, warfare was around the leader,
not the nation. Grece as we understand it was not a clearconcept to the
people then. Nation states, yeild to cities.
15:47 Torrey
Philemon: I also wonder how long Achilles was out of action...Several
weeks? Several months? And what did he and his men do in the meantime?
Swim and play the lyre? I'm surprised civil war didnt' break out in Achilles'
battalion.
15:49 David
Marius: Torrey, I think you have to see that each group saw their "nationality'
as their city-state. There was no loyalty to the group.u
15:49 Torrey
Philemon: Interesting, David. The loyalty was to the small group not
the large...
15:51 David
Marius: They spent much of their time according to the Iliad fighting
amongst themselves (pre Trojan War) as the Greek States were to do several
hundred years later. It is our concept to put them all together in one
package.
15:51 Torrey
Philemon: Are we winding down? Do we have an official ending time?
It's almost 4.
15:52 David
Marius: Yes, we should probably move on to Wednesday is it
15:53 Ricardex
Cornelius: We will end in 9 minutes. And thanks for coming.
15:53 Ricardex
Cornelius: Yes, pleas epost things on board and suggestions fo rWEd.
15:53 Ricardex
Cornelius: I want to say on a realpewrsonal level how much this group
and his works is enjoyed by me.
15:54 Torrey
Philemon: This has been very stimulating, and quite substantial for
a chat. I appreciate everyone's input. Wonder how many of the same people
will be here Wednesday...
15:54 diopan
Nestor: It's been most interesting...thanks...see you all on
Wed.
15:54 David
Marius: I plan to be.
15:55 Ricardex
Cornelius: thanks all of you.
15:55 Torrey
Philemon: Where will this transcript be available? Just here in the
chat room? Or via a link from FB?
15:55 diopan
Nestor: good night
15:55 Ricardex
Cornelius: I wil ask some one to make a transcript.
15:56 Ricardex
Cornelius: Hopefully that wil occur.
15:56 David
Marius: Do you have any count on the number who were here.
15:56 Ricardex
Cornelius: I count a near 12.
15:56 Torrey
Philemon: I wrote down 9 names of people who posted...maybe there were
more.
15:57 David
Marius: Isn't a transcript suppose to be automatically available here
in the chat room?
15:57 Ricardex
Cornelius: Yes, two folks were here and did not post.
15:57 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
15:57 Torrey
Philemon: My See who's here link just shows an empty screen.
15:58 Ricardex
Cornelius: Transcripts are, but a time lag of some sort is involved.
15:58 flavius
Horatius: For some reason the transcript function is not working right
now, at least for me: I have been repeatedly trying to access it and have
had absolutely no luck.
15:58 David
Marius: But Torrey we can have some lurkers, who may be getting their
dimes worth without jumping in.
15:58 diopan Nestor exits...
15:58 flavius Horatius exits...
15:59 gnaeus
Junius: Goodbye for now.
15:59 David
Marius: Torrey, that's why I asked? The see's who here would be helpful
but I have never seen it work.
15:59 Ricardex
Cornelius: The icon indicator never works at AS except at the track1
15:59 Torrey
Philemon: A suggestion for A.S. would be to add an easy make-a-transcript
button to our chats so we all could keep or save the trascript.
15:59 Ricardex
Cornelius: Only at circum maximus do you see icons.
16:00 Ricardex
Cornelius: The transcripts are availble but a time lag is in
effect.
16:00 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
16:01 Torrey
Philemon: How long does it take, Ricardex...for the transcript to become
available?
16:01 Belay Fabius enters...
16:01 David
Marius: Goodby all, see most of you Wednesday!
16:01 Belay
Fabius: Torrey I just read the transcripts before coming here. Instant
16:01 Torrey
Philemon: Well thankyou to all who remain. This is probably the most
intelligent chat I've attended...now time for pizza!
16:02 Ricardex
Cornelius: About an hour i think?
16:02 Ricardex
Cornelius: Oh really?
16:02 Belay
Fabius: Anyone remaining for the chat extended..
16:02 David Marius exits...
16:02 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well try and see if they come out.
16:03 Ricardex
Cornelius: I woul dlove to remain,but I have demands and demands is
the term to get things going at once.
16:03 Torrey
Philemon: My mind is warring with my stomach. I think stomach will
win this battle. It's raging!! Goodbye all.
16:03 Belay
Fabius: Ricardex: Could you extend the chat ..
16:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Wednesday and more talk
16:04 Torrey Philemon exits...
16:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Stay if you like.
16:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Welcome to stay, by all means feelfree.
16:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: I sadly must run.
16:04 Belay
Fabius: >Ricardex is anyone staying ..
16:05 David Marius exits...
16:05 Ricardex
Cornelius: I see just you.
16:06 Belay
Fabius: >Ricardex... well that is it then. Next chat session is when?
Wedenesday you said..
16:06 Ricardex
Cornelius: Yes Wednesday it is.
16:07 Ricardex
Cornelius: Well I bid good-bye!
End of chat.
Second Iliad Chat Wednesday September 16 Transcript
HERE
Third Iliad Chat Sunday September 20 Transcript
HERE
Ricardex
Cornelius is Librarian of FB and moderator of the chat.
Torrey
Philemon posted this transcript.
ODYSSEY
CHATS starts October 18!
More ancient Greek literature and myth links at Torrey
Philemon's!