Iliad Chat Transcript
from Fabularum Bibliotheca

283 lines of discussion for
Sep. 16, 1998

PAGE TWO....continued from PAGE ONE
 
 

21:37 Asterix Flavius: >Melisa - good point about Patroclus "becoming" Achilles.  I some respects he was Achilles' alter ego.  His mistake came in thinking he could perform feats that Achilles could.  As it was, he performed brilliantly.
21:37 Melisa Alexandros: And the agent of Pathorclus death is Hector. The counterpart of Achilles. The killer of his friend.
21:37 Torrey Philemon: Melisa, but Achilles starts questioning the value of fighting even before Patroclus dies, when he refuses Agamemnon's offer, and says that life without honor is better than death with honor...
21:37 Belay Fabius: Death is  an accepted state of life, that is the end. The concept of eternal life that is the continuity of after life is borrowed from the eastern religions and developed to its full by christianity. The dead  are just shadows in the greek thought
21:38 Melisa Alexandros: Asterix, Pathroclus became Achilles. And his death announced that of Achilles. Achilles versus Hector is fighting versus  the possibility of his own no-existence.
21:39 David Marius enters...
21:39 Aurora Inca: I believe Hesiod stated that there was nothing beyond the grave. By the time we get to Homer, a very small "something" remains, though only a vague shadow of the former person
21:40 Torrey Philemon: People throughout time have used ideals such as honor and patriotism to justify war and the risk of death. It seems significant to me that in his withdrawal from battle, Achilles starts to question this. At this point he chooses life over the ideal of honor. 
21:41 Melisa Alexandros: Belay, thatīs right. Hector's soul descends to the Hades, weaping for his fate, because he left a beautiful and strong body. no shadowy life after life could be compared with the life he lose
21:41 Asterix Flavius: I read somewhere that the greek s felt that the dead body was impure and the purpose of the rites was to transform it from an impure state to a pure one.  The rites also assured that the living would form relationships without the deceased member.
21:41 Penelope Didius enters...
21:42 Torrey Philemon: Sounds right to me, Asterix...
21:43 Belay Fabius: >Torrey : Inorder to have a hero in the homerian period there must be war. War is the indispensable  condition to create a hero and death is the acceptable result neither to be feared nor to look for
21:44 Aurora Inca: Odyesseus in the underworld draws the shades to him with blood, and has to keep many of them back at weapon-point. Those he allows near hungrily lap it up, hungry for ANYTHING related to their former life and the world of the living. They are rather pitiful.
21:45 Belay Fabius enters...
21:45 Torrey Philemon: Yes, Belay, but Achilles starts to question this...He doesn't buy it anymore. He's only willing to return as he promised, if and when the Trojans start burning the ships...
21:46 David Marius: Just wondering..we've been tossing aroung the words noble and honor. Do they appear in the Iliad? 
21:47 Asterix Flavius: >Torrey - I don't think that Achilles rejected the idea of war or receiving glory in it.  I think he did not think Agamemnon showed himself up to the task of leadership, and the slight to Achilles was the last straw.
21:48 Torrey Philemon: Honor appears a lot, but I don't think noble does. A lot here depends on our translation.
21:49 David Marius: Torrey. I don't think that his staying away from the fighting has anything to do with questioning. After all he knows he can go home and live a long life without honor. Okay honor dies appear there.
21:49 David Marius: does not dies curious that slip
21:52 Torrey Philemon: Lombardo: Achilles to Agamemnon, when he rejects Ag's offer: And what do I have for all my suffering/Constantly putting my life on the line?/...Noting is worth my life, not all the riches/They say Troy held before the Greeks came/Not all the wealth in Phoebus Apollo's Marble shrine/A man's life cannot be won back
21:54 Torrey Philemon: There appears to be two different kinds of honor here...Achilles' personal honor was threatened when Ag took Briseis, but he'd rather sacrifice his honor in the community and have his life than fight. So one kind of honor is more important to him than the other.
21:54 Asterix Flavius: THE INDIANS WIN THE CENTRAL DIVISION!!!  okay, so there wasn't a lot of suspense.
21:56 David Marius: Torrey, then why didn't he go home?
21:56 Ricardex Cornelius: sorry to be absent.
21:56 Petronilla Livius enters...
21:56 David Marius: He only has two fates. And sitting by the ships is not one of them.
21:57 Ricardex Cornelius: Both the Byzantine senate and its Emperor called as did my wife to be.
21:57 Torrey Philemon: Good question, David. He threatened to go home. But he also had promised that he'd return to fight if the Trojans reached the ships. And maybe he was just blowing off steam when he threatened to leave.
21:59 David Marius: Torrey, which is why Zeus has the apparent double cross and almost lets Hector take the ships.
21:59 Asterix Flavius: Achilles' refusal ofAgamemnon's offer was one of the turning points of the Iliad, for me.  Up until then it was possible to be sympathetic because Ag was so clearly wrong.  Then Achilles puts his self above the good of the whole.
21:59 Torrey Philemon: Maybe he wouldn't get as much attention if he went home...whereas everyone is aware of him, sitting in the camp, and waiting for him to return...
22:00 David Marius: Asterix, but that is exactly what a hero does.
22:00 Melisa Alexandros: Torrey yes, Achilles' anger wanted be observed by the group. In a way, he behaves like a kid.
22:01 Torrey Philemon: Very well said, Asterix. It would have been noble at that point for Achilles to give in and return to battle. Agamemnon offers him a lot, and in humility.
22:01 Aurora Inca: He is "Achilles the loser" after his woman is taken away, and would still be thought of as such if he went home. If he stays and jumps into the fray when most needed he becomes "Achilles the hero". Much better for his ego.
22:01 David Marius: Torrey, you are missing the point. Thetis gives his a choice. Go home live a long life with no honor. Or kill Hector and be killed almost immediately after.
22:02 Melisa Alexandros: Achilles isn't very acute in practicing the 'meden agan' (not too much) ideal.
22:02 Asterix Flavius: >Torrey - good point.  But then the narrative would have foundered if he left.
22:03 Torrey Philemon: Right, David. I don't disput that. What I'm saying is that once Achilles withdraws from battle, he seems to be rethinking his choice. He committed himself to fight, then he backs off, and then seems to prefer to choose life, and reverse his choice.
22:05 David Marius: Torrey, in humility where do you find that? A lot of gifts. But you give a vassal gifts. And Achilles is still expect to bow down to Agamemnon
22:05 Torrey Philemon: Melissa, does meden mean moderation? In contrast to excess (what's the greek word for the reverse?)
22:06 David Marius: If he is going to choose life, then he goes home.
22:07 Torrey Philemon: David, I'm not sure where we're disagreeing with each other, if we are....(he could choose life and still stay, but not fight)
22:07 Ricardex Cornelius: And the day he choose to go to Troy he was on path to death and glory!
22:08 Asterix Flavius: >David - right, but for the good of the group he could have assumed in public it was in good faith and humbly done.  He decided not to and more of his comrades were killed and injured.
22:08 Torrey Philemon: Ok. I see where we are getting confused.
22:08 David Marius: Torrey, not really one of the two choices given.  I don't think the prophecy is meant that he could hang around forever and then go home.
22:09 Torrey Philemon: Did fate decree that if he fought at all, he would die? Or could he in withdrawing from fighting then guarantee that he wouldn't die when the war ended. 
22:09 David Marius: Asterix, Yes but a hero doesn't care about the group.
22:11 Torrey Philemon: Is that true, David? Isn't heroism in behalf of the group as well as the individual? Is one a hero if one does valiant deeds in behalf of oneself, without any concern for a group or community? 
22:12 Ricardex Cornelius: I understand if he went to war at Roy he would die in glory! And he knew it.
22:12 Asterix Flavius: >David - a real hero does.  Am I getting out of time here?  I don't think so, but does anyone else have insights into the concept of the Homerian hero?
22:12 David Marius: I am looking so far Thetis is telling his to avoid any fighting.
22:13 Asterix Flavius: >Ricardex - he fought Roy, too?
22:13 Belay Fabius enters...
22:14 David Marius: I am working from Knox view in Fagles. A Homeric hero was like the gods in being self-centered and not caring what destruction (he/she) may cause. They are more or less than human.
22:14 Ricardex Cornelius: Troy(-: and I bet someone named Roy woul dge tkilled!
22:15 Torrey Philemon: So in the Homeric view, a man could be a hero if he acts against one's community rather than for it?
22:15 Ricardex Cornelius: Well folks we ar enearing two hour mark, any remarks or ar eyou  staying on?
22:16 Melisa Alexandros enters...
22:16 David Marius: Well, isn't that what Achilles is doing. 
22:17 David Marius: Thetis with Zeus. Achilles is to stay by the ships until his honor met. Zeus thus helps the Trojans.
22:17 Asterix Flavius: I'm for going on.  Lots of great ideas thrown around, but no closure.  BTW, why didn't we have a coup when Ricardex was gone?
22:17 Torrey Philemon: Well, I guess there's the issue of what now, studying Homeric times, would view as a Homeric hero...and what people in those times would view as a hero. Would the Greeks have continued to view Achilles as a hero if he had not returned to battle and killed Hector? 
22:18 David Marius: In order to get Agamemnon to humble himself and honor Achilles.
22:19 Ricardex Cornelius: Well hey know coup needed, I believe  in individual  grass roots,so...Stay on and keep on.
22:19 David Marius: The answer, Torrey, is no. He can go home and live long WITHOUT honor.
22:20 David Marius: Ricardex, one of the new people I cantacted said "Only two chats on Iliad" Maybe more is needed.t
22:20 Torrey Philemon: But according to fate...he wouldn't die
22:21 Torrey Philemon: Whoops. Interface acting up. But according to fate, he wouldn't die unless he returned to battle, right?
22:21 Aurora Inca: More would be nice. So many different aspects to explore.
22:22 David Marius: Torrey, yes, but staying by his ships tells us that he is only waiting for us to turn enough pages for him to get his satisfaction and then onwards and upwards.
22:22 Ricardex Cornelius: David, the chat i sopen to anyone when ever they wwant so...
22:22 Asterix Flavius: Was it James Dean who said "live hard, die young, and leave a good-looking corpse"?  Course, I don't know how good-looking he was after the accident.
22:23 Ricardex Cornelius: Serious, you guys pick a day/time and discussion leader and I wil promote it.
22:23 Torrey Philemon: Which means, David, that he has every intention of returning to battle and proving his capacity as a warrior, right? So when he threatens to leave, he doesn't mean it.
22:23 Belay Fabius: David:   I  agree to extended time on Iliad. The homeric question and the controversy is older than christianity. Even as far as the first century Josephus a jewish historian wrote about the disagreements on Homer and his work. In short  I ask for extennsion  of the discussion
22:23 Ricardex Cornelius: I am really proud of thi sgroup and remember Athenia editor wants stories on the translation aspect of this work,so.....
22:24 David Marius: Surprise what those morticians can do. But nothing on the gods. Everybody has had a hack at Hector. Then he gets dragged around and left  by the pyre. But they fix him all up.
22:24 Aurora Inca: Thank you, everyone. I've enjoyed this evening, though I've mainly listened. I will certainly be back for future FB discussions. Good night.
22:25 Torrey Philemon: What time zone is everyone on? I teach till 10 edt every night starting next week, so can't do any more evening chats unless they start late. Weekend times are better.g
22:26 Asterix Flavius: It's 10:28 on my clock [that's p.m.]
22:26 David Marius: Weekend afternoons is probably best because our overseas member can join in.
22:27 Aurora Inca: Central time zone. 
22:27 Aurora Inca exits...
22:28 David Marius: Just don't want to start too early or Pacific won't be up and about.
22:30 Ricardex Cornelius: Well tell me details and I wil post aggressive fo ryou!
22:30 Ricardex Cornelius: And vot ein officer election please.
22:31 Petronilla Livius: How did 2PM  EDT work last weekend
22:31 Asterix Flavius: Well, I better be going.  My spouse wants to use the pc.  Looking forward to more discussions.  Bye, y'all
22:31 Asterix Flavius exits...
22:31 Torrey Philemon: Goodbye to all. I appreciate the intelligent conversation....
22:32 David Marius: Bye all, Hope to talk again.
22:32 Torrey Philemon exits...
22:32 Ricardex Cornelius: We got about 12 
22:32 Belay Fabius: Good bye..
22:33 Ricardex Cornelius: Did time get set?
22:35 Petronilla Livius: I don't think so - I came so late I have just been listening.  (Sloppy fingers)
22:36 Ricardex Cornelius: Well if a third is desired they need a time set.
22:38 David Marius: How about 2 Pm Saturday or Sunday. Fit your schedule?
22:38 Petronilla Livius: From what was said, maybe 2 on this Saturday would work????? 
22:40 Petronilla Livius: Ricardex - when is your wedding?
22:41 Ricardex Cornelius: 9/19 $PM
22:42 Ricardex Cornelius: 4pM You guys can have that time. I will be busy at
22:42 Ricardex Cornelius: But you guys can go ahead.
22:44 Ricardex Cornelius: Hello!
22:45 David Marius: Ricardex, on the patron list they said something about group wide grams. CAn we send one to the FB members?
22:45 Ricardex Cornelius: I wish David, we never have seen the feature set up yet.
22:46 Ricardex Cornelius: I joined to get it. they promised groups this too - jot and I talked about how this would make it easier to organize, no deal yet, however.
22:46 David Marius: Okay nice idea tho. 
22:46 Petronilla Livius: Did we want to have it on Sunday so as to avoid conflict with the wedding? 
22:46 Ricardex Cornelius: Do you want Sat, 2PM EDT?
22:46 Ricardex Cornelius: Wedding at $EDT
22:47 Ricardex Cornelius: 4
22:47 David Marius: Post Sat or Sunday at 2PM.
22:47 Ricardex Cornelius: Sunday? IS THAT OK?
22:47 David Marius: As far as I am concerned, there is no difference.
22:48 Petronilla Livius: Sunday works for me 
22:48 David Marius: Sunday is fine at 2 PM
22:48 Ricardex Cornelius: Sunday then it is!
22:49 Petronilla Livius: I'm glad we're going to do another discussion since I have missed these - see you there & then!
22:49 David Marius: Good now that is settled, off to see if my computer will do other work. Great fun and challenge.
22:50 Petronilla Livius: Bye!
22:50 David Marius: Especially the new words our fingers produce 
22:50 David Marius: Bye.
22:50 Petronilla Livius exits...
22:51 David Marius exits...
22:52 Ricardex Cornelius exits...

Transcript posted by Torrey Philemon
Do visit Torrey's Helen of Troy links, and her poem, Helen's Lament,
inspired by our Iliad reading and discussion here at FB!

First Iliad Chat Saturday September 12 Transcript HERE
Third Iliad Chat Sunday September 20  Transcript HERE
Ricardex Cornelius is Librarian of FB and moderator of the chat.

Go to Trojan War Transcripts Index