|
|
Fabularum Bibliotheca Odyssey
Chat Transcript #2
| 225lines of discussion for Oct. 24, 1998 |
20:03 Theodora
Nestor: Hello. I heard the discussion on the Odyssey was supposed to be here at
7:00.
20:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Sory gang at two other meetings and have five grams going
20:04 Asterix
Flavius: Yes this is the Odyssey discussion page.
20:04 Ricardex
Cornelius: Asterix is in charge!!!
20:05 Asterix
Flavius: My ISP was slow. I've been trying to logon since 7:25. One ground
rule. Get all the "Circe did nothing special, all men are swine" jokes out
of the way first.
20:05 Catra Callias:
I have a friend just so you know Diotima , Ariadne Cleisthenes is here with me
20:05 Aurora Inca: I hadn't even thought of that one! Now that you
mention it.......
20:06 Diotima
Theocritos: Great! You should have some rousing discussions off-line also
20:06 Catra Callias:
Yup If you only knew
20:06 Asterix
Flavius: Have a number of you seen Torrey's Odyssey Journal? Personally I don't
favor the psych approach for very many authors, but it is certainly a valid one.
Besides, she has fun graphics.
20:07 Catra Callias:
Have you all ever thought homer might have been a woman?
20:07 Aurora Inca: I haven't seen Torrey's, but I'm VERY familiar with
the psych approach.
20:07 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
20:08 Asterix
Flavius: One of the things I have been struck by this time through the Odyssey is the
prominence of female characters. Any thoughts out there?
20:08 MANANNAN Cormac enters...
20:08 Ricardex
Cornelius: Sorry wil watch and shut up.
20:08 Petronilla
Livius: Torrey's 'swine as men' cartoons are great fun!
20:09 Diotima
Theocritos: I think that Torrey brings up some interesting ideas. Homer certainly
included a lot of interesting women in this epic, and they were mostly missing from
the Iliad. Why do you think that is guys?
20:09 Asterix
Flavius: .Petronilla - that's it. Let's get that out of our systems first.
It is out of your system, right?
20:10 Theodora
Nestor: I think the women play a major role in developing the character of Odysseus.
20:10 Catra Callias:
Homer is so caught up in femininity either he was a woman or he lived by Freuds principle
20:10 Lillake
Theocritos: I think he probably was getting older and realized that women are more
imorptant than he did when he wrote the Iliad
20:11 Petronilla
Livius: Reminded me of my ex-husband - now it's out of my system :)
20:12 Catra Callias:
I love Torrey's pictures and weblinks they're kewl
20:12 Asterix
Flavius: OTH,,"But she--/the Queen hell-bent on outrage--bathes in shame/not only
on herself but the whole breed of womankind,/even the honest ones to come, forever down
the years!" - Fagles Book 11, lines 489-492
20:12 MANANNAN
Cormac: It doesn't seem like the Illiad had a lot of room for women in it. It was a
war story. The Odyssey is about Odysseus' maturing and re-entering a world he left ten
years ago. It's kind of like he is being raised all over again. Hence, the need for lots
of important women.
20:12 Theodora
Nestor: Possibly. But the Iliad was about war and the Odyssey was about
times of peace. Maybe, Homer thought that women seem to play a bigger role in the
lives of men in times of peace.
20:14 Aurora Inca: Women were the supposed "causes" of the
conflicts in the Iliad - Helen, and Achilles' woman, etc. In The Odyssey, it seems like
they are more to be dealt with than fought over.
20:14 Asterix
Flavius: Very good, MANANNAN. It seems that it is a product of a more mature
writer. BTW, was Homer a blind rhapsodist?
20:14 Theodora
Nestor: My last response was a little slow. Sorry Manannan.
20:14 Catra Callias:
Maybe but why did he portray woman during wartime as whores(Helen) and as peacetime as
perfect wives?
20:14 Diotima
Theocritos: Maybe the women are symbolic of ideas that Homer wanted to express.
20:15 Ricardex
Cornelius: Hector's wife is well treated in Illiad.
20:15 Catra Callias:
What ideas do you think he was trying to express Diotima asks Ariadne?
20:17 Diotima
Theocritos: The need for civilizing agents if man is to achieve peace? What a
good marriage might look like?
20:18 Petronilla
Livius: Reminded me of my ex-husband - now it's out of my system :)
20:18 Catra Callias:
Andromeche didn't show strength but submission how well treated is that?
20:19 MANANNAN
Cormac: Helen reminds me of the prettiest girl in high school. She was the one all the
guys were beating each other up to get to. We all know what becomes of those days and the
mway we act when we are young and rash. The women of the Odyssey are more like people you
meet in life when you are ready to grow upwards. You learn from them, and take in their
wisdom. Women seem to be the perfect vehicles for Homer, given the nature of the heroes in
his stories
20:19 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
20:21 Catra Callias:
Is Homer trying to say that until men get older women are only status symbols asks
Ariadne?
20:21 Petronilla
Livius: Sorry - my system is acting screwy - didn't intend duplicate post
20:21 Diotima
Theocritos: Well, I might argue that in times of war women really should shut up and
keep their heads down. Manannan has a point that after the warrior phase of the
journey to maturity, men do seem to appriciate women's knowledge mor, but I guess they
need to REALLY separate from Mom first.
20:21 Asterix
Flavius: I especially liked the contrast of Penelope and Clytemnestra.
20:22 Asterix
Flavius: Is Pallas the heroine?
20:23 MANANNAN
Cormac: Sorry to detract from discussion, but does anyone have a good refresh rate?
mINE IS JUMPING AROUND FURIOUSLY.
20:24 Diotima
Theocritos: Well, Penelope and Clytemnestra mirror their husbands perfectly. Is Pallas
the heroine of what? Mananan try 3 to 5 seconds
20:24 Petronilla
Livius: Re: Mom - It is interesting that the second persons O talked with in the halls
of the dead was his mother
20:24 Asterix
Flavius: It always jumps around. I don't think it's the refresh rate. Has
anyone heard from the cyberdeities on this point?
20:24 Catra Callias:
A good thing is for a woman to wait around why a man sows his oats and then is supposed
take him back?
20:25 Catra Callias:
Some heroine
20:26 Diotima
Theocritos: Hey, it's war things happen at home as well as at the battle front.
20:26 Catra Callias:
Yeah
20:26 Asterix
Flavius: Another question I have. Is the Odyssey in any way an historical
document?
20:27 Catra Callias:
GOOd question
20:27 Catra Callias:
It's someones historical document
20:27 MANANNAN
Cormac: Catra- Perhaps Odysseus does not live up to modern standards of fidelity, but
was he consistent with his times? It may have been better for him to stay faithful, but
his circumstances were pretty dire. Maybe he was so caught up in staying one step ahead of
Posiedon and retaining his skin that he did not have time to be perfectly moral.
20:28 Aurora Inca: I don't know about historical. But I have heard it
called geographical.
20:28 Diotima
Theocritos: Great question! Several archeologists have tried to discover Troy.
Schleman (sp) being the most famous, although many have questioned his methodologies
recently.
20:28 Catra Callias:
Maybe it just made for good reading states Ariadne.
20:30 Theodora
Nestor: I agree, Manannan. Odysseus can't be judged by today's standards.
20:31 Diotima
Theocritos: There is a very interesting connection between the actual voyage of
Odysseus and the voyage of Sinbad the Sailor as it appears in the Thousand and One Nights'
text. They meet very similar monsters and have similar escapes. We know for a
fact that the two authors did not have access to each others' texts. How do you
explain that?
20:31 Kaliber Solon enters...
20:31 Catra Callias:
Who sets the standards?
20:32 MANANNAN
Cormac: The Hero With A Thousand Faces. J. Campbell knew what was up.
20:32 Catra Callias:
I think that people all over the world have similar circumstances
20:32 Theodora
Nestor: I have to get out of here. I can't keep up.
20:32 Diotima
Theocritos: Well, an epic is suppose to reflect the standards of the culture that
produces it.
20:32 diopan Nestor enters...
20:33 Diotima
Theocritos: Manannan, I'm impressed! have you read Campbell, or just seen the specials
on tv?
20:34 MANANNAN
Cormac: Catra- In theory society sets the standards. Infidelity and mistresses seemed
to be the order of the day in Homer's time. It was probably never a good standard, but it
seems historical.
20:34 Catra Callias:
touche
20:35 MANANNAN
Cormac: Diotima-Have read some Campbell, and used to be married to an English major.
Get grilled often over liking any characters except Hector.
20:35 Theodora
Nestor: Some cultures today still share these standards.
20:36 Aurora Inca: I've read quite a bit of Campbell. Working my way
through The Masks of God right now.
20:37 Theodora Nestor exits...
20:38 Diotima
Theocritos: Ok, students, lets chat about Odysseus. What does he learn from his
voyage?
20:39 Kaliber Solon:
to respect his family maybe
20:39 Catra Callias:
That homelife is more important than war states Ariadne
20:40 MANANNAN
Cormac: No man is so crafty and wily that he can overcome life's obstacles without
help(gods, women, friends)
20:40 MANANNAN Cormac enters...
20:40 Lillake
Theocritos: I believe he had respect for his family already. If he didn't then
he would have never wanted to go home in the first place.
20:40 Catra Callias:
how rude
20:40 Catra Callias:
Patience maybe?
20:41 Diotima
Theocritos: Good response Kaliber since aidos is one of the major themes of the
poems. Homelife should be the reason for war. But, Manannan, you are just
being argumentative. Odysseus had plenty of help! remember Athena? remember Nausica
(of the white arms)?
20:41 Catra Callias:
Ariadne says bye
20:41 Kaliber Solon:
no so much respect then, but he learned to value his time with them after losing so much
of it already.
20:42 Asterix
Flavius: I've read some commentaries that Polyphemus' cave is the turning point for
Odysseus. He used the "NoName" name and then started on the road to a
different sort of character. Maybe one worthy of Penelope and his kingship.
20:42 Asterix
Flavius: [Campbell, BTW, is one of the main proponents of the psych approach
-"The Masks of God: Occidental Myths"
20:43 Diotima
Theocritos: Cool idea Asterix, the cave might symbolize a womb, and thus a
rebirth! But he also causes himself lots of problems by claiming kudos when he
should have been prudent.
20:43 MANANNAN
Cormac: Doitima, Catra- Did not mean to be argumentative or offensive. Please allow me
to re state. It is my personal interpretation that Odysseus learned the value of others in
the Odyssey. No slander intention toward women or friends or even gods from me
20:44 Kaliber Solon:
Although, Odysseus still retained his "lust" for claiming kudos
20:44 Asterix
Flavius: Of course, I've also read commentary that the blinding in the cave is the
symbol of man vs. nature.
20:44 Kaliber Solon:
I couldn't get it to post...slow response
20:45 Catra Callias:
Maybe it's the balance principle again
20:46 Diotima
Theocritos: Try again Kaliber. What else could that cave represent? How
about brains over brawn?
20:46 Catra Callias:
Everyone needs Kudos put too much of a good thing can turn bad
20:46 Asterix
Flavius: >Diotime - I don't like the idea of womb here, except in consciously
allegorical sense. The descent to Hades is more specifically death and rebirth
theme. Adonis/Osiris come to mind.
20:47 Catra Callias:
Could the cave symbolize safety and security
20:47 Aurora Inca: Or emerging from the water just before he meets
Nausicaa. Has to wash off salt water, like amniotic fluid, casts off wrap given him by a
goddess, the amniotic membrane, etc.
20:48 Lillake
Theocritos: Could the cave represent the importance of using your brain to overcome
brawn?
20:48 Aurora Inca: I don't think so, THAT cave wasn't safe or secure.
20:48 MANANNAN
Cormac: The Cyclops' cave is an early stop on the voyage home. Perhaps Odysseus is
just starting his heroic transformation from warrior to family man. Maybe Polyphemus is
his last warriorly "fling".
20:48 Catra Callias:
Kewl thought Aurora
20:49 Kaliber Solon:
Could it also represent the violation of hospitality?
20:49 Catra Callias:
How about comfort?
20:49 Catra Callias:
OR the love of luxurious things?
20:49 Diotima
Theocritos: It is after the war and Homer might be trying to reinforce the idea that
we need brains now not brawn.
20:49 Petronilla
Livius: Why does the cave have to represent anything?
20:50 Aurora Inca: It struck me that O. made a big point of seeing
Polyphemous and his kind as uncivilized - they didn't sow grain or cultivate the grapes.
They were herders.
20:50 Catra Callias:
Petro because it's a myth
20:51 Catra Callias:
that's the nature of the beast
20:51 Carcinogenus Theognis enters...
20:51 Catra Callias:
no pun intended
20:51 Diotima
Theocritos: Because it is an epic! everything represents something!! That's what makes
it good literature! If it was just a cave, then this poem would have ben popular
fiction and died out long ago. Aurora, I think you have a good point.
20:51 Carcinogenus
Theognis: Alas, I've finally located it...
20:51 Kaliber Solon:
The majority of Odysseus's journeys use logic and deductive reasoning--instead of brute
strength.
20:52 Catra Callias:
I'll try to keep that in mind Diotima
20:52 MANANNAN
Cormac: A pretty bloody fight happens in the cave, but after he leaves the cave
Odysseus seems to become the soldier going home. The rest of his fighting is to either get
home or secure his home. Can we see the cave like Plato's allegory? Man leaves the
world of shadows and enters the world of light.
20:53 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
20:54 Catra Callias:
Well all I gotta go the hubby calls and I need to spend some time with him before he goes
to do his job as a soldier
20:54 Aurora Inca: Sometimes caves represent the unconsciuos - the dark
place we can'e see.
20:54 Aurora Inca: (bad typing - sorry)
20:54 Catra Callias:
I will see you all again I'm sure :)
20:54 Kaliber Solon:
So what are you saying then, the cave was a starting point of some kind of recognition?
20:55 Lillake
Theocritos: Manannan, I think you have a good idea here. The warrior life is
like the world of shawdows and home is the light.
20:55 Diotima
Theocritos: Manannan, Maybe, but I'm still wondering about the name calling
thing. If he doesn't give his name he can leave safely. But he just can't
resist that last fling. I like the idea of the cave and battle with Poly. as a
transition from warrior to statesman.
20:55 Diotima
Theocritos: Bye Catra!
20:55 Catra Callias:
Diotima I will see you Teusday
20:56 Catra Callias exits...
20:56 Diotima
Theocritos: Kaliber, what would have been recognized in the cave?
20:56 Asterix
Flavius: Bye Catra! Is giving his name while sailing away an example of his
hubris?
20:56 Lillake
Theocritos: Diotima, maby the stating of the name shows us that he still has some of
that warrior still in him and he must overcome it to get home.
20:57 Aurora Inca: Definitely hubris! And without it, he might have
gotten home a lot earlier!
20:57 Theodora
Nestor: Maybe the name things was just to show the flaw in Odyseeus's character.
20:57 MANANNAN
Cormac: Diotima- I think the "NoName" trick probably saved us from a very
short story. If Odysseus would have given his true name, I think Posideon would have
somehow had to hear him and would have had to respond with great violence. I think
Odysseus knew just how far he could go with his wounding of Posideon's son.
20:58 Kaliber Solon:
maybe that it was a time for a change from his warrior type to a logical being?
20:58 Diotima
Theocritos: Lillake! Good thinking, but Perikles says that you actually never get over
being a warrior, and Never Never Never get over being at war. but, I think you might be on
to something, keep thinking.
21:00 Diotima
Theocritos: Yes, Kaliber..At least a more compassionate being? maybe he needed the
hardships that came after the cave to humanize him again.
21:00 Kaliber Solon:
Didn't we agree that he showed more humanism in this tale than in the Iliad?
21:01 Lillake
Theocritos: Per. was right about never getting over war. Look at all the vets
who have serious mental problems when they come home. I think that Homer was trying
to show us that you can leave the war, but the war will never leave you.
21:01 Asterix
Flavius: Any thoughts on the folklorist approach to the Odyssey. In that one,
the various adventures are hardly understood remains of even more ancient religious
rituals. Possibly cannabilism was a form of communion in some societies? [I
love playing devil's advocate]
21:02 Theodora
Nestor: It's hard to show a lot of humanism in war.
21:02 Asterix
Flavius: >Kaliber - even tho showing more humanity, he is not static, but increases
in his understanding of self and others.
21:03 Diotima
Theocritos: Per says you are right on Lillake. Astrix, there is actually quite a
bit of scholarship on this point. Especially since there are so many parallels with other
sailor stories. The Odyssey might be just sailor lore.
21:05 Diotima
Theocritos: Asterix, what do you think of Calypso? What "ritual" would
she represent?
21:07 Lillake
Theocritos: Maby Calypso represent the sailor docking at a port and having a little
fling before sailing on :)
21:09 Kaliber Solon:
I think it could represent that people want to forget the past, their worries and move on.
21:09 MANANNAN
Cormac: Have to sail home now. It was very enjoyable chatting (my first time ever).
See you all around!
21:09 MANANNAN Cormac exits...
21:09 Kaliber Solon:
but Odysseus realizes he cant forget and grieves for his homecoming
21:09 Diotima
Theocritos: Kaliber, maybe you are thinking about the lotus eaters.
21:10 Theodora
Nestor: What about the beauty or braun vs. brains issue in Book 8? Was it
part of the Greek belief that brains were more important?
21:11 Diotima
Theocritos: I'm going to go check out another chat be back in about 10.
21:11 Diotima Theocritos exits...
21:11 Theodora
Nestor: Why did they have so many physical contests?
21:11 Kaliber Solon:
I must be going...this was real fun! I will be back sometime bye
21:12 Lillake
Theocritos: The Greeks valued individualist So I think both would apply
21:13 Asterix
Flavius: Bye Kaliber!
21:14 Lillake
Theocritos: I have to go see you around
21:14 Theodora
Nestor: It's been fun, but I've got to go now also.
21:15 Theodora Nestor exits...
21:15 Asterix
Flavius: >Lillake - love your idea on Calypso. There's also a school of
thought that the Odyssey represents distorted historical memories. Of course all the
various interpretations are not mutually exclusive. [most of this BTW from Bernard Knox
intro to Fagles trans.]
21:15 Lillake Theocritos exits...
21:16 Carcinogenus Theognis exits...
21:17 Aurora Inca: I have to be moving on also. Good night, all.
21:17 Aurora Inca exits...
21:17 Diotima Theocritos enters...
21:18 Asterix
Flavius: Hi Diotima.
21:19 Diotima
Theocritos: Asterix, that sounds very Jungian to me!
21:19 Asterix
Flavius: Well, my last name in RL is Young.
21:22 Diotima
Theocritos: The idea of historical memory would also account for the similar stories
from around the mediteranian. Sorry for the delay, I had to answer a telegram.
21:23 Gloria Etana enters...
21:23 Asterix
Flavius: Personally, I prefer the distorted memory approach. Maybe it's the
Schliemann in me. But, as I wrote, they're not mutually exclusive. Works of
art can have several levels of meaning, of course. Quite often not consciously
intended by the author.
21:23 Diotima
Theocritos: Hello Gloria!
21:25 Gloria Etana exits...
21:25 Asterix
Flavius: Evening, Gloria.
21:25 Diotima
Theocritos: I think that really good art of any genre has a universality about it that
makes it "seem" familiar. Although, recent scientific scholarship would
imply we get quite a bit of memory from our DNA. is that what you mean by distorted
memory?
21:28 diopan Nestor exits...
21:29 Asterix
Flavius: No, more memory passed down from VERY early times orally, with quite a few
changes thru that transmission. Are you familiar with Star Trek [classic trek
series] where Kirk had to say the beginning of US Constitution that was unintelligible to
those who used it as religious tract?
21:30 Asterix
Flavius: Who all is left, by the way. Should we call it a night?
21:31 Diotima
Theocritos: Yes, I see what you mean. That it is distorted memory for those who
created and used the text not those who are reading it centuries later.
21:32 Diotima
Theocritos: I'm ready to call it a night. Leave me a post at my house if you
want to continue the discussion. Bye.
21:32 diopan Nestor enters...
21:34 Asterix
Flavius: Well, I think we're about done. Any takers on leading next discussion
[Books 13-16]? Bye Diotima. Leave posts on any other thoughts on the Odyssey
or leading chat, or date/time that would be good.
21:36 Diotima
Theocritos: Let me know and I will bring my students along. They LOVE (and
frequently need) extra credit.
21:36 Diotima Theocritos exits...
21:37 Asterix Flavius exits...
GO TO Odyssey Chat
Transcript 3
GO TO Odyssey Chat Transcript 4
GO TO: Torrey Philemon's Odyssey Links
GO TO: Torrey's Odyssey Journal
GO TO: Trojan War Transcripts Index