Song of Troy chat

21:49 Zoe Xanthippos: Of course, not all of them believed that the Greeks weren't up to something. Priam was old. And I think he wasn't reasoning as well as he once might have done
21:50 Torrey Philemon: Yes, I can't believe how the Greek could keep still that long.....or suffer from claustrophobia (<-: maybe Mccullough earlier was preparing us for how close men were to be together) : .... and have trouble understanding how the Trojans could have been so gullible and trusting, as Zoe implied......
21:50 Zoe Xanthippos: I would assume that the men inside the horse were volunteers, they would also not have allowed anyone who appeared to be weak in any way into such an important mission
21:52 Morgana Flavius: Funny... the horse in the Iliad is something totally devised by mortals and yet... it is the most unbelievable part of the story, isn't it?
21:52 Torrey Philemon: I'm just thinking of how when we really WANT something to be, it can be too easy to convince ourselves that it's happening. Like they really WANTED the war over and for the Greeks to have gone home. They were hungry to believe the story Sinon told them (which was clever - I think McCullough did this well)
21:53 Torrey Philemon: I also find it hard to believe that the Trojans would leave the horse unguarded too. Another scenario would be that the men start to come out but are surrounded by about 50 Trojan soldiers. But the Trojans are so trusting (not only in McCullough but in the account in the Aeneid too)
21:54 Morgana Flavius: I think that Sinon's story was very faithful to the Iliad, no?
21:54 Zoe Xanthippos: I have tried to look up horse stuff. The Hittites who fought many wars around the same time period as Troy used manmade horses as seige engines and battering rams. There is a carving on something or another that I saw on here picturing this, earlier in time than the Trojan horse
21:55 Morgana Flavius: Ah, how interesting, Zoe! The Hittites were Trojan's neighbours.
21:57 Torrey Philemon: Interesting to learn more about sources regarding the Trojan horse......
21:57 Zoe Xanthippos: Sorry I can't produce a link or a source at the moment
21:57 Torrey Philemon: (I'm putting together a list of contemporary words derived from myth for the course I'm teaching.....and the Trojan virus is derived from the Trojan horse, I think. )
21:58 Zoe Xanthippos: Oh, Apollodorus wrote about it, but that was later of course. I have something in my notes, somewhere. Disorganized here. But I have a plan to solve that! Just no time.
21:59 Zoe Xanthippos: contemporary words, hmmm, makes me think of the Trojan brand of condoms. Not a very good advertisement for them is it?
22:00 Morgana Flavius: The Trojan virus functions just like the Trojan horse: it comes inside your PC like an innocent "gift" file and when you're not expecting it releases its lethal poison, erasing your hard disk, etc.
22:00 Torrey Philemon: Ha ha, check this out..... http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CLAA02/trojanhorse.html
22:02 Torrey Philemon: You got it, Morgana. Just found the same description of the connection between the two here. http://www.agnitum.com/products/tauscan/ttour1.phtml
22:03 Zoe Xanthippos: I firmly believe that all these myths, like the Trojan war, have their roots in reality. This was an oral tradition, an oral history, long before it was written. Embellished in the retelling of course, but essentially, somewhere true. By finding out what other nations, like the Hittites, were doing in the same time period, one can give validity to some of the stranger aspects. I wish I remembered more of the Bible histories of warfare. The Hittites were always in those stories weren't they?
22:04 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Zoe, the Hittites were harrassing the Israelits, who lived just south of the Hittite country.
22:05 Morgana Flavius: And I too believe that myths have always "one foot on reality".
22:07 Torrey Philemon: Let us know what you find out about the Hittite origins, Zoe.
22:13 Torrey Philemon: Hello out there? Are you all off sacking Troy or are you following my links? <-:
22:15 Morgana Flavius: I think I'm having a feeling of what it was like into that Trojan horse... I'm drowsing in the heat...
22:15 Torrey Philemon: Now, now, you're supposed to be sending us some of that heat.
22:15 Zoe Xanthippos: Actually I was trying to fish through my messy notes on here. A job for another time. I could have sworn I had something but it's buried alive
22:16 Torrey Philemon: It's hard to believe those guys had enough air. And they had no idea how long they'd be in there either.......
22:16 Morgana Flavius: Will I get some cool weather in exchange? ;-)
22:16 Torrey Philemon: We all ought to get creative and write some monologues on life in the Trojan horse.
22:16 Zoe Xanthippos: Here's a fresh breath of icy air from me for you (PUFF!!)
22:17 Torrey Philemon: Gee all this talk about the Trojan horse is making it real. Morgana's dying in the heat and Zoe is buried alive.
22:17 Zoe Xanthippos: I think McCullough's version of Neoptolemus' sensation of blindness was good
22:17 Torrey Philemon: I was going to send Morgana a snowman but the only one I remembered on the Web was a great animation of a sexy snowman who falls over due to uhh I won't say what ....but someone took the image down. Ah well.
22:17 Zoe Xanthippos: not me, my notes LOL!
22:18 Zoe Xanthippos: What?!
22:18 Morgana Flavius: (LOL Torrey!)
22:18 Torrey Philemon: Remind us, Zoe, of that part. Neoptolemus' sensation of blindness. When was that? Getting out of the horse after the darkness......?
22:19 Zoe Xanthippos: Yeah, the description of cloth covered air holes didn't seem to me to be able to let in enough air.
22:20 Morgana Flavius: Cant'remember the Neoptolemus' story either...
22:20 Zoe Xanthippos: Perhaps the Trojan Horse was a metaphor for human spies. If enough Greeks could arrange to get in over a period of several days and hide and then have met at a prearranged place...
22:21 Torrey Philemon: I wonder if there's been a simulation of this. About 20 men (or was it 50?) in a giant wooden horse for 24 hours......Someone must have "engineered" such a real life simulation.......though building the horse would be costly.
22:21 Morgana Flavius: I would not mind seeing a sexy snowman now... woundn't mind at all...! ;-)
22:22 Torrey Philemon: Uh oh, Zoe. Are you out-McCulloughing McCullough? Trying to find a more believable way of telling the Trojan horse story? <-: (Maybe I really shouldn't have a whisky sour every time I do an online chat.......<-; )
22:22 Zoe Xanthippos: No. Neoptolemus was in the horse, leaning on Odysseus, and being grateful he had O. at his back so he could touch on his strength. the part starts on p. 463 and he thinks he will never be able to see when he gets out the darkness inside the horse is so total
22:23 Zoe Xanthippos: Ah, but McCullough didn't invent the horse.
22:24 Torrey Philemon: True. She didn't invent the quarrel between Agamemnon and Achilles either, but she changed that.
22:24 Zoe Xanthippos: A sexy snowman...hmmm... I think I'd opt for something a bit warmer myself
22:24 Morgana Flavius: Ah, now I remember, Zoe!
22:25 Morgana Flavius: (LOL Zoe!)
22:25 Zoe Xanthippos: hers is the first version I remember reading that discusses what is was like inside that horse. It seemed pretty reasonable to me, though I would not have wanted to go along for that pony ride myself
22:26 Morgana Flavius: Oh my... Torrey is having whisky sour and I'm the one who's laughing like a drunken... hum... horse! (LOL)
22:26 Zoe Xanthippos: (of course, when one was done with the sexy snowman, he'd have melted and be gone, not a bad thing perhaps...)
22:27 Torrey Philemon: Here's a warm image for you, Zoe http://www.arval.org.ve/Sun.htm
22:27 Zoe Xanthippos: my poor beers apparently are leading me into deep and snowy waters LOL
22:28 Torrey Philemon: I haven't seen any other versions about life inside the horse either. (oh my, I see that more than one of us is drinking!)
22:28 Morgana Flavius: LOL LOL LOL!
22:29 Zoe Xanthippos: Thank you Torrey, I'm warmer already! Which reminds me - why is it so much more blinding to see the sun in eclipse than to have it in your eyes driving home? I should be permanently blind by now from that
22:29 Morgana Flavius: It's the two hour chat non-sense time, Torrey! Remember?
22:30 Zoe Xanthippos: they always have these dire and scary warnings about blindness when there's going to be an eclipse
22:32 Torrey Philemon: Here's antarctica to cool you off, Morgana..... http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/earth/gal_antarctica.jpg
22:33 Zoe Xanthippos: I'm not even going to look at that one. I'll just look out the window at my own very used snow from 2 weeks ago
22:34 Morgana Flavius: Gee, thanks Torrey! And thanks for letting me know it is antarctica; it also looks like the Sahara. ;-)
22:35 Zoe Xanthippos: You tricked me into looking at it Morgana! *G* It sure looks like snow to me!
22:36 Torrey Philemon: Have we run out of serious discussion topics?
22:36 Morgana Flavius: I think I ran out of brilliant ideas about McCullough's Song of Troy...
22:37 Torrey Philemon: Morgana doesn't know what snow looks like because she's a jungle woman!
22:37 Zoe Xanthippos: I think I'm just getting tired earlier than usual. All this inventory business is an energy drain.
22:38 Zoe Xanthippos: LOL! I think we should inundate her with snow photos!
22:38 Torrey Philemon: Ok I can come up with a legitimate topic.....page 384......
22:39 Morgana Flavius: Well, I must say that I am looking forward to our Tiberius chat. I finished Massie's book and also Suetonius on Tiberius life. I'm now back to Tacitus' Annals.
22:39 Zoe Xanthippos: what did you flag there? I have a flag on the hitting women part that they weren't allowed to do anymore after they got women out of power
22:39 Torrey Philemon: Bottom of page. " A man must never strike woman or child, anyone weaker than he. When men cast out the Old Religion, that was a part of the bargain by which the Gods gave men the right to rule."
22:40 Torrey Philemon: You got it, Zoe.
22:40 Morgana Flavius: Huh, Zoe, I had my share of snow in the past..
22:40 Torrey Philemon: (I am hesitant to read Tacitus because I've developed a fondness for Tiberius....)
22:41 Zoe Xanthippos: and god gave them the "right to rule"? and did they hit women when women ruled? How did they get away with that if the women ruled?
22:41 Morgana Flavius: Does it mean that men beat women during the Old Religion days?
22:42 Torrey Philemon: Did McCullough make up this concept, that men's taking more power bears with it the responsibility for protecting the feminine or weaker....?
22:43 Morgana Flavius: (I feel like Zoe's echo) *s*
22:43 Zoe Xanthippos: there's also more on the old religion again on p. 386 in the description of the Amazons which I meant to look up further but didn't get to it.
22:43 Torrey Philemon: Interesting question, Morgana. Though from most of what I've read, there isn't a lot of evidence that women had power over men in the old religion days - anywhere but with the amazons. But there is a lot of evidence of societies based on equality between the sexes.
22:44 Zoe Xanthippos: and it's also odd that in the afterword on the fates of the characters that so many of the men had their kingdoms taken over by their women while they were gone
22:44 Morgana Flavius: Or... does it mean that women had the right to rule because they protected men? (hum... I think I'm thinking about that sexy snowman...)
22:45 Morgana Flavius: Yes, that is very interesting, Zoe. That women were ruling while men were away, fighting the Trojans.
22:45 Torrey Philemon: Speaking of the Amazons - McCullough had another twist here. The myth is that Achilles RAPED Penthesilea after he killed her. I guess McCullough didn't like this, so she focused on the Amazonian custom of breathing air into the mouth at the time of death. Was this another McCullough invention?
22:46 Morgana Flavius: Sounds like another McCullough invention...
22:47 Morgana Flavius: (previous post about breathing air at the time of death)
22:47 Zoe Xanthippos: It's not so strange that the women carried on the affairs of the various kingdoms while their men were away at war but that they held on to this power after the men came back
22:47 Torrey Philemon: I get the impression that McCullough was trying to come up with an explanation for why Achilles was believed to have raped Penthesilea.....he was seen lying on top of her so people "misinterpreted" his action.
22:48 Morgana Flavius: (back to Tacitus, Torrey, have you read Suetonius? I think Suetonius is more unpleasant than Tacitus when he writes about Tiberius)
22:48 Torrey Philemon: Zoe, you're reminding me of WWII....how then, like probably in most wars, women did take charge while men were away. But as soon as men return, women are relegated to their "proper place" which is then idealized so that women give up their jobs and subordinate themselves to men again.......
22:49 Zoe Xanthippos: I hadn't run into the corpse rape part. That's pretty gross I wonder why the story got told - what were Achilles' reasons for raping Penthesilea? The life breath sounds familiar to me but I can't place it, some other culture's story I think
22:49 Torrey Philemon: (Yes Morgana I read most of Suetonius on Tiberius......about 3/4 of it. He seems both positive and negative on Tiberius.)
22:49 Torrey Philemon: I wonder where I read the corpse rape story. I have a scholarly book on the Amazons. I'll look it up in there.....
22:51 Zoe Xanthippos: Yes, Torrey, normally the women "happily" relinquish their responsibilities, which in our case is where all of us came from. The woman who didn't want to go make babies after WWII was the odd one
22:51 Torrey Philemon: Amazon women in greek art http://apk.net/~fjk/amaz2.html
22:52 Morgana Flavius: I think that Achilles raping Penthesilea, in the Iliad, symbolizes what happens to women when they are in the conquered field: they are raped and enslaved. Well, Penthesilea was a woman, she was defeated, and Achilles just did what men did with the women who lived: raped them.
22:55 Torrey Philemon: Related to what you just said, Morgana.....I just found this: "What Penthesilea probably does represent is the beginning of the retreat of Goddess worshipping peoples in Asia Minor in the face of continuing violence from invaders. "
22:56 Morgana Flavius: Here's an interesting link about the Amazons: http://www.amazonation.com/
22:58 Torrey Philemon: Wow! A lot of links there. Though it's probably hard to differentiate research on the Amazons from contemporary feminism and lesbianism (not that I'm judging the latter, it's just that they're adapting amazonion concepts for their own purposes)
22:58 Torrey Philemon: By the way The Greek Mythology link is still down - it's been over a week now. I hope it's not gone for good.
22:59 Zoe Xanthippos: That's an interesting article Torrey. I just thought of something. Perhaps the rape of a dead enemy did not seem all that odd to the people of that time. Maybe it was common. And Morgana's point on continuing the defeat also makes sense
22:59 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I agree with you, Torrey.
23:00 Torrey Philemon: Do either of you know the source that says Achilles actually RAPED Penthesilea? Was it really in the Iliad?
23:01 Zoe Xanthippos: your link is quite interesting too, Morgana, a lot to explore there. Maybe they'll make reference to the life breath thing
23:02 Morgana Flavius: I am not 100% sure, Torrey, but I think Penthesilea's rape by Achilles is in the Iliad.
23:02 Torrey Philemon: Apollodorus: "was afterwards herself killed by Achilles, who fell in love with the Amazon after her death"   IN LOVE?
23:03 Zoe Xanthippos: and a line from Torrey's link: "that when a new religion takes over an old one the deities of the old one become the devils of the new one."
23:03 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I thought so too, Zoe, that somewhere there would be something about this life breathing tradition.
23:03 Zoe Xanthippos: Penthesilea wasn't in the Iliad was she?
23:03 Torrey Philemon: This ridiculously long link may not work here but the footnote on Penthesilea is really interesting...... (Apollodorus again)   http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0548%2C002&query=5%3A1
23:05 Zoe Xanthippos: I just looked in the back of the Iliad I have in here and Penthesilea is not mentioned in the characters list or in the speeches by persons in the story list
23:07 Morgana Flavius: Here's what I found about Penthesilea in that Amazonation site (and yes, she was in the Iliad):
23:08 Torrey Philemon: I think she was in the Iliad too.
23:09 Morgana Flavius: "The Amazon queen Penthesileia fell beneath the sword of Achilles, who immediately violated her dead body. Homer attributed this necrophilic act to Achilles's love of her beautiful corpse. More likely, it was a magic charm to immobilize her vengeful spirit. Greeks feared the ghosts of slain Amazons."
23:10 Zoe Xanthippos: oh well, I can't know everything *G* How does one fall in love with someone one just killed I wonder? Perhaps it wasn't a continuation of defeat but an action of respect for a fine and beautiful warrior,? Maybe Achilles was "honoring" her corpse rather than raping it
23:11 Morgana Flavius: The links "Ancient Amazons" on that Amazonation site lead to interesting texts about the Amazons.
23:11 Zoe Xanthippos: and the magic charm part makes as much sense as any of it
23:13 Torrey Philemon: Well, perhaps "love" for many men is just sexual attraction........I'd really enjoying researching Penthesilea more, as applies to the Iliad and Trojan war etc. ....Would you all like to do that? Research the amazon role in the Trojan war, Penthesilea etc. and share what we find on our Song of Troy board?
23:15 Zoe Xanthippos: I'd also like to read more about them, I know just about nothing, only the stereotypical stuff
23:15 Torrey Philemon: I bought two books about them a few years ago and never got around to reading them. There's some fascinating information out there.....and apparently many web sites on the subject.
23:16 Zoe Xanthippos: I am still beset by the 'rules of war' I can't find anything that spells it all out for me, only McCullough's constant referral to them. Why do I always latch onto something I can't get at?!
23:16 Torrey Philemon: Is this popular Xena tv show supposedly an Amazon story? I stay away from it - most of these tv mythic retellings are like soap opera.
23:17 Torrey Philemon: I'm the same way, Zoe, always questioning and not wanting to drop an issue. That does make us incessant researchers however. There are a few sites out there about ancient Greek military tactics but my guess is they focus more on battle strategy than "moral concepts"
23:18 Morgana Flavius: The Amazons fascinate me too. I'd like to do that, Torrey, research on Penthesilea and her role in the the Trojan War. But I'm afraid I have other priorities now. Both professional and literary.
23:18 Zoe Xanthippos: My husband watches that show every night and tries to tell me about it. He's hooked which doesn't compliment any historical truth to it (ooh, maybe that's too rude...)
23:19 Torrey Philemon: Morgana, that quote you just typed up about Achilles violating her dead body. Where was that from? Was that a paraphrasing of the Iliad?
23:19 Zoe Xanthippos: In my searching I've not turned up much but the Heroic Code of Honor which doesn't exactly do it. And Morgana, we can do Amazon reading over a period of time.
23:20 Torrey Philemon: I like my history to be historical and my fantasy to be fantastical. I mean if a book or movie is going to base itself on history or a myth, then I think it should be true to it. If it's fantasy, then let it be fantasy - but not pretend to be history! (For example, I think Massie's Tiberius was excellent. It was a fiction but it read like history and appeared to be as true as possible to ancient sources)
23:20 Torrey Philemon: Just curious what your literary priorities are right now, Morgana.
23:21 Morgana Flavius: The quote is from http://www.amazonation.com/ancientamazonsII.html
23:22 Zoe Xanthippos: the lure is in the costuming perhaps...but lots of kids like Xena. Like I've said many times here, I'm not a TV watcher. Can't do everything and I'd rather read!
23:22 Torrey Philemon: I wonder if there's a site that has textual search of the Iliad......but then again it's probably not too hard to find the part where Penthesilea dies. Probably around book 24 or 25.
23:23 Morgana Flavius: My literary priorities right now are ancient Rome, right before and right after Cleopatra, Antony & Augustus
23:23 Zoe Xanthippos: Oh, my copy of Caesar's Daughter showed up right after Christmas, the Daughter of Troy has apparently fallen by the wayside, or into cyberspace
23:24 Morgana Flavius: I think they feature Xena in the TV here, but I haven't seen it.
23:26 Morgana Flavius: I read The Song of Troy because I was not getting the books I had ordered at that time (Pat Southern on Antony and Augustus) and The Song of Troy arrived very quick from Amazon UK.
23:27 Torrey Philemon: Are you going to read Caesar's Daughter soon, Zoe? And Morgana, where do you want " to go" after Tiberius?
23:27 Torrey Philemon: Ah, so you might want to go deeper into the time of Cleopatra, Morgana?
23:28 Morgana Flavius: After Tiberius? Caligula, Nero, etc... ;-)
23:29 Torrey Philemon: I'm not so sure I'll find Caligula and Nero inspiring! .....maybe it is time to log off. This has been very enjoyable!
23:29 Torrey Philemon: And I'm glad you could make it Zoe - I know it's a busy time of year for you. Have you been able to get into Massie's Tiberius yet?
23:29 Morgana Flavius: I'm not sure if I'm going back to Cleopatra. I think that after I read Southern's Cleopatra I was satisfied. I would say that we have acquired a sound knowledge about her by now; but of course, I am open to new things about her!
23:30 Zoe Xanthippos: Yes Morgana, we started earlier tonight, if I remember correctly, so as not to keep you up as late and we have just talked longer ! We must be having fun here! *s*
23:30 Torrey Philemon: Morgana's more at home in Rome and I'm more at home in Greece.....but have honestly been drawn into this time period in Rome history.
23:31 Zoe Xanthippos: I got out my Tiberius today and the jacket said that it was #2 of 3 on the Roman Emperors. What's next?
23:31 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Zoe! I'd say so too: we must be having a hell of a fun here!! :-)
23:31 Torrey Philemon: I might be open to read Caesar's Women (McCullough); in any case I have it, as well as Caesar's Daughter (about Julia)
23:31 Zoe Xanthippos: And I also think I'm about done with Cleopatra though anything new would be interesting to me as well
23:32 Torrey Philemon: Morgana and I already read Massie's Augustus....or were you with us then, Zoe? His Caesar's out of print.
23:32 Morgana Flavius: I think Massie's next book after Tiberius was about Caesar (Julius)
23:33 Torrey Philemon: And Antony wasn't an emperor. By the way I do recommend the Baker book on Tiberius. Solid nonfiction, research, very readable.
23:33 Morgana Flavius: We read Massie's Augustus and Antony. And now, Tiberius.
23:33 Zoe Xanthippos: I'd like to read all of McCullough's Rome ones, I've found one used one so far and Caesar's women sounds particularly intriguing but I like reading sets of books in order
23:33 Morgana Flavius: Did you hear about Margaret George's book on Nero?
23:34 Torrey Philemon: Well I guess we can decide during our Tiberius chat where to go next with Roman history. In regard to Greek, I'm preparing my mythology class......and want to do a little more with the Oresteia.........and life will get busier soon. So I guess all of us have to take this slowly.
23:34 Zoe Xanthippos: I wasn't with you for Augustus, but my other half, Mara, was. How quickly she has been forgotten *sigh*
23:34 Torrey Philemon: George has a new book on Nero?
23:34 Morgana Flavius: I plan to read all of McCullough's Masters of Rome books. I already ordered the Crown of Grass, which comes after the First Man in Rome. I intend to read then in the chronological order.
23:35 Torrey Philemon: Yes, your sister seems to be silent lately, Zoe! <-:
23:35 Torrey Philemon: You're ambitious, Morgana!
23:36 Morgana Flavius: I read somewhere that after so much material George had gathered for her Cleopatra book, she intended to use it for a book on Nero. Can't remember why she chose Nero, but there was a reason.
23:37 Morgana Flavius: Well, ladies, if I don't see you before our Tiberius chat on January 2nd, have a very happy new year, century, millennium!!!
23:37 Torrey Philemon: Ah, it's not written yet. I just typed in George and Nero at amazon.com and got a book about a remote pacific island by George Keate and Karen Nero. Ha!
23:38 Zoe Xanthippos: And a very Happy New Year to you also, Morgana!!
23:38 Torrey Philemon: Have a wonderful new year, both of you. And it truly is the real millennium now, though no one seems to care now that the Y2K scare is long past.
23:39 Morgana Flavius: BTW, Massie's Antony and George's Cleopatra were just released here in Brazil.
23:39 Torrey Philemon: I found a site a few days ago that consists of nothing but jokes about ancient history. I'll have to check it out further and entertain you all in 2001..........Sleep well!
23:39 Morgana Flavius: Good night, Zoe and Torrey!
23:40 Morgana Flavius exits...
23:42 Torrey Philemon exits...

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