21:49 Zoe Xanthippos: Of course, not
all of them believed that the Greeks weren't up to something. Priam was old.
And I think he wasn't reasoning as well as he once might have done
21:50 Torrey Philemon: Yes,
I can't believe how the Greek could keep still that long.....or suffer from
claustrophobia (<-: maybe Mccullough earlier was preparing us for how close men were to
be together) : .... and have trouble understanding how the Trojans could have been so
gullible and trusting, as Zoe implied......
21:50 Zoe
Xanthippos: I would assume that the men inside the horse were volunteers, they would
also not have allowed anyone who appeared to be weak in any way into such an important
mission
21:52 Morgana Flavius: Funny... the
horse in the Iliad is something totally devised by mortals and yet... it is the most
unbelievable part of the story, isn't it?
21:52 Torrey Philemon: I'm
just thinking of how when we really WANT something to be, it can be too easy to convince
ourselves that it's happening. Like they really WANTED the war over and for the Greeks to
have gone home. They were hungry to believe the story Sinon told them (which was clever -
I think McCullough did this well)
21:53 Torrey Philemon: I
also find it hard to believe that the Trojans would leave the horse unguarded too. Another
scenario would be that the men start to come out but are surrounded by about 50 Trojan
soldiers. But the Trojans are so trusting (not only in McCullough but in the account in
the Aeneid too)
21:54 Morgana Flavius: I think that
Sinon's story was very faithful to the Iliad, no?
21:54 Zoe
Xanthippos: I have tried to look up horse stuff. The Hittites who fought many
wars around the same time period as Troy used manmade horses as seige engines and
battering rams. There is a carving on something or another that I saw on here
picturing this, earlier in time than the Trojan horse
21:55 Morgana Flavius: Ah, how
interesting, Zoe! The Hittites were Trojan's neighbours.
21:57 Torrey Philemon:
Interesting to learn more about sources regarding the Trojan horse......
21:57 Zoe
Xanthippos: Sorry I can't produce a link or a source at the moment
21:57 Torrey Philemon: (I'm
putting together a list of contemporary words derived from myth for the course I'm
teaching.....and the Trojan virus is derived from the Trojan horse, I think. )
21:58 Zoe
Xanthippos: Oh, Apollodorus wrote about it, but that was later of course. I have
something in my notes, somewhere. Disorganized here. But I have a plan to
solve that! Just no time.
21:59 Zoe
Xanthippos: contemporary words, hmmm, makes me think of the Trojan brand of
condoms. Not a very good advertisement for them is it?
22:00 Morgana Flavius: The Trojan
virus functions just like the Trojan horse: it comes inside your PC like an innocent
"gift" file and when you're not expecting it releases its lethal poison, erasing
your hard disk, etc.
22:00 Torrey Philemon: Ha
ha, check this out..... http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CLAA02/trojanhorse.html
22:02 Torrey Philemon: You
got it, Morgana. Just found the same description of the connection between the two
here. http://www.agnitum.com/products/tauscan/ttour1.phtml
22:03 Zoe
Xanthippos: I firmly believe that all these myths, like the Trojan war, have their
roots in reality. This was an oral tradition, an oral history, long before it was
written. Embellished in the retelling of course, but essentially, somewhere
true. By finding out what other nations, like the Hittites, were doing in the same
time period, one can give validity to some of the stranger aspects. I wish I
remembered more of the Bible histories of warfare. The Hittites were always in those
stories weren't they?
22:04 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Zoe,
the Hittites were harrassing the Israelits, who lived just south of the Hittite country.
22:05 Morgana Flavius: And I too
believe that myths have always "one foot on reality".
22:07 Torrey Philemon: Let
us know what you find out about the Hittite origins, Zoe.
22:13 Torrey Philemon:
Hello out there? Are you all off sacking Troy or are you following my links? <-:
22:15 Morgana Flavius: I think I'm
having a feeling of what it was like into that Trojan horse... I'm drowsing in the heat...
22:15 Torrey Philemon: Now,
now, you're supposed to be sending us some of that heat.
22:15 Zoe
Xanthippos: Actually I was trying to fish through my messy notes on here. A job
for another time. I could have sworn I had something but it's buried alive
22:16 Torrey Philemon: It's
hard to believe those guys had enough air. And they had no idea how long they'd be in
there either.......
22:16 Morgana Flavius: Will I get
some cool weather in exchange? ;-)
22:16 Torrey Philemon: We
all ought to get creative and write some monologues on life in the Trojan horse.
22:16 Zoe
Xanthippos: Here's a fresh breath of icy air from me for you (PUFF!!)
22:17 Torrey Philemon: Gee
all this talk about the Trojan horse is making it real. Morgana's dying in the heat and
Zoe is buried alive.
22:17 Zoe
Xanthippos: I think McCullough's version of Neoptolemus' sensation of blindness was
good
22:17 Torrey Philemon: I
was going to send Morgana a snowman but the only one I remembered on the Web was a
great animation of a sexy snowman who falls over due to uhh I won't say what
....but someone took the image down. Ah well.
22:17 Zoe
Xanthippos: not me, my notes LOL!
22:18 Zoe
Xanthippos: What?!
22:18 Morgana Flavius: (LOL
Torrey!)
22:18 Torrey Philemon: Remind us,
Zoe, of that part. Neoptolemus' sensation of blindness. When was that? Getting out of the
horse after the darkness......?
22:19 Zoe
Xanthippos: Yeah, the description of cloth covered air holes didn't seem to me to be
able to let in enough air.
22:20 Morgana Flavius:
Cant'remember the Neoptolemus' story either...
22:20 Zoe
Xanthippos: Perhaps the Trojan Horse was a metaphor for human spies. If enough
Greeks could arrange to get in over a period of several days and hide and then have met at
a prearranged place...
22:21 Torrey Philemon: I wonder if
there's been a simulation of this. About 20 men (or was it 50?) in a giant wooden horse
for 24 hours......Someone must have "engineered" such a real life
simulation.......though building the horse would be costly.
22:21 Morgana Flavius: I would not
mind seeing a sexy snowman now... woundn't mind at all...! ;-)
22:22 Torrey Philemon: Uh oh, Zoe.
Are you out-McCulloughing McCullough? Trying to find a more believable way of telling the
Trojan horse story? <-: (Maybe I really shouldn't have a whisky sour every time I
do an online chat.......<-; )
22:22 Zoe
Xanthippos: No. Neoptolemus was in the horse, leaning on Odysseus, and being
grateful he had O. at his back so he could touch on his strength. the part starts on
p. 463 and he thinks he will never be able to see when he gets out the darkness inside the
horse is so total
22:23 Zoe
Xanthippos: Ah, but McCullough didn't invent the horse.
22:24 Torrey Philemon: True. She
didn't invent the quarrel between Agamemnon and Achilles either, but she changed that.
22:24 Zoe
Xanthippos: A sexy snowman...hmmm... I think I'd opt for something a bit warmer myself
22:24 Morgana Flavius: Ah, now I
remember, Zoe!
22:25 Morgana Flavius: (LOL Zoe!)
22:25 Zoe
Xanthippos: hers is the first version I remember reading that discusses what is was
like inside that horse. It seemed pretty reasonable to me, though I would not have
wanted to go along for that pony ride myself
22:26 Morgana Flavius: Oh my...
Torrey is having whisky sour and I'm the one who's laughing like a drunken... hum...
horse! (LOL)
22:26 Zoe
Xanthippos: (of course, when one was done with the sexy snowman, he'd have melted and
be gone, not a bad thing perhaps...)
22:27 Torrey Philemon: Here's a
warm image for you, Zoe http://www.arval.org.ve/Sun.htm
22:27 Zoe
Xanthippos: my poor beers apparently are leading me into deep and snowy waters
LOL
22:28 Torrey Philemon: I haven't
seen any other versions about life inside the horse either. (oh my, I see that more than
one of us is drinking!)
22:28 Morgana Flavius: LOL LOL LOL!
22:29 Zoe
Xanthippos: Thank you Torrey, I'm warmer already! Which reminds me - why is it
so much more blinding to see the sun in eclipse than to have it in your eyes driving
home? I should be permanently blind by now from that
22:29 Morgana Flavius: It's the two
hour chat non-sense time, Torrey! Remember?
22:30 Zoe
Xanthippos: they always have these dire and scary warnings about blindness when
there's going to be an eclipse
22:32 Torrey Philemon: Here's
antarctica to cool you off, Morgana..... http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/earth/gal_antarctica.jpg
22:33 Zoe
Xanthippos: I'm not even going to look at that one. I'll just look out the
window at my own very used snow from 2 weeks ago
22:34 Morgana Flavius: Gee, thanks
Torrey! And thanks for letting me know it is antarctica; it also looks like the Sahara.
;-)
22:35 Zoe
Xanthippos: You tricked me into looking at it Morgana! *G* It sure looks like
snow to me!
22:36 Torrey Philemon: Have we run
out of serious discussion topics?
22:36 Morgana Flavius: I think I
ran out of brilliant ideas about McCullough's Song of Troy...
22:37 Torrey Philemon: Morgana
doesn't know what snow looks like because she's a jungle woman!
22:37 Zoe
Xanthippos: I think I'm just getting tired earlier than usual. All this
inventory business is an energy drain.
22:38 Zoe
Xanthippos: LOL! I think we should inundate her with snow photos!
22:38 Torrey Philemon: Ok I can
come up with a legitimate topic.....page 384......
22:39 Morgana Flavius: Well, I must
say that I am looking forward to our Tiberius chat. I finished Massie's book and also
Suetonius on Tiberius life. I'm now back to Tacitus' Annals.
22:39 Zoe
Xanthippos: what did you flag there? I have a flag on the hitting women part
that they weren't allowed to do anymore after they got women out of power
22:39 Torrey Philemon: Bottom of
page. " A man must never strike woman or child, anyone weaker than he. When men cast
out the Old Religion, that was a part of the bargain by which the Gods gave men the right
to rule."
22:40 Torrey Philemon: You got it,
Zoe.
22:40 Morgana Flavius: Huh, Zoe, I
had my share of snow in the past..
22:40 Torrey Philemon: (I am
hesitant to read Tacitus because I've developed a fondness for Tiberius....)
22:41 Zoe
Xanthippos: and god gave them the "right to rule"? and did they hit
women when women ruled? How did they get away with that if the women ruled?
22:41 Morgana Flavius: Does it mean
that men beat women during the Old Religion days?
22:42 Torrey Philemon: Did
McCullough make up this concept, that men's taking more power bears with it the
responsibility for protecting the feminine or weaker....?
22:43 Morgana Flavius: (I feel like
Zoe's echo) *s*
22:43 Zoe
Xanthippos: there's also more on the old religion again on p. 386 in the description
of the Amazons which I meant to look up further but didn't get to it.
22:43 Torrey Philemon: Interesting
question, Morgana. Though from most of what I've read, there isn't a lot of evidence that
women had power over men in the old religion days - anywhere but with the amazons. But
there is a lot of evidence of societies based on equality between the sexes.
22:44 Zoe
Xanthippos: and it's also odd that in the afterword on the fates of the characters
that so many of the men had their kingdoms taken over by their women while they were gone
22:44 Morgana Flavius: Or... does
it mean that women had the right to rule because they protected men? (hum... I think I'm
thinking about that sexy snowman...)
22:45 Morgana Flavius: Yes, that is
very interesting, Zoe. That women were ruling while men were away, fighting the Trojans.
22:45 Torrey Philemon: Speaking of
the Amazons - McCullough had another twist here. The myth is that Achilles RAPED
Penthesilea after he killed her. I guess McCullough didn't like this, so she focused on
the Amazonian custom of breathing air into the mouth at the time of death. Was this
another McCullough invention?
22:46 Morgana Flavius: Sounds like
another McCullough invention...
22:47 Morgana Flavius: (previous
post about breathing air at the time of death)
22:47 Zoe
Xanthippos: It's not so strange that the women carried on the affairs of the various
kingdoms while their men were away at war but that they held on to this power after the
men came back
22:47 Torrey Philemon: I get the
impression that McCullough was trying to come up with an explanation for why Achilles was
believed to have raped Penthesilea.....he was seen lying on top of her so people
"misinterpreted" his action.
22:48 Morgana Flavius: (back to
Tacitus, Torrey, have you read Suetonius? I think Suetonius is more unpleasant than
Tacitus when he writes about Tiberius)
22:48 Torrey Philemon: Zoe, you're
reminding me of WWII....how then, like probably in most wars, women did take charge
while men were away. But as soon as men return, women are relegated to their
"proper place" which is then idealized so that women give up their jobs and
subordinate themselves to men again.......
22:49 Zoe
Xanthippos: I hadn't run into the corpse rape part. That's pretty gross I
wonder why the story got told - what were Achilles' reasons for raping Penthesilea?
The life breath sounds familiar to me but I can't place it, some other culture's story I
think
22:49 Torrey Philemon: (Yes Morgana
I read most of Suetonius on Tiberius......about 3/4 of it. He seems both positive and
negative on Tiberius.)
22:49 Torrey Philemon: I wonder
where I read the corpse rape story. I have a scholarly book on the Amazons. I'll look it
up in there.....
22:51 Zoe
Xanthippos: Yes, Torrey, normally the women "happily" relinquish their
responsibilities, which in our case is where all of us came from. The woman who
didn't want to go make babies after WWII was the odd one
22:51 Torrey Philemon: Amazon women
in greek art http://apk.net/~fjk/amaz2.html
22:52 Morgana Flavius: I think that
Achilles raping Penthesilea, in the Iliad, symbolizes what happens to women when they are
in the conquered field: they are raped and enslaved. Well, Penthesilea was a woman, she
was defeated, and Achilles just did what men did with the women who lived: raped them.
22:55 Torrey Philemon: Related to
what you just said, Morgana.....I just found this: "What Penthesilea probably does
represent is the beginning of the retreat of Goddess worshipping peoples in Asia Minor in
the face of continuing violence from invaders. "
22:56 Morgana
Flavius: Here's an interesting link about the Amazons: http://www.amazonation.com/
22:58 Torrey Philemon: Wow! A lot
of links there. Though it's probably hard to differentiate research on the Amazons from
contemporary feminism and lesbianism (not that I'm judging the latter, it's just that
they're adapting amazonion concepts for their own purposes)
22:58 Torrey Philemon: By the way
The Greek Mythology link is still down - it's been over a week now. I hope it's not gone
for good.
22:59 Zoe
Xanthippos: That's an interesting article Torrey. I just thought of
something. Perhaps the rape of a dead enemy did not seem all that odd to the people
of that time. Maybe it was common. And Morgana's point on continuing the
defeat also makes sense
22:59 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I agree
with you, Torrey.
23:00 Torrey Philemon: Do either of
you know the source that says Achilles actually RAPED Penthesilea? Was it really in the
Iliad?
23:01 Zoe
Xanthippos: your link is quite interesting too, Morgana, a lot to explore there.
Maybe they'll make reference to the life breath thing
23:02 Morgana Flavius: I am not
100% sure, Torrey, but I think Penthesilea's rape by Achilles is in the Iliad.
23:02 Torrey Philemon: Apollodorus:
"was afterwards herself killed by Achilles, who fell in love with the Amazon after
her death" IN LOVE?
23:03 Zoe
Xanthippos: and a line from Torrey's link: "that when a new religion takes
over an old one the deities of the old one become the devils of the new one."
23:03 Morgana Flavius: Yes, I
thought so too, Zoe, that somewhere there would be something about this life breathing
tradition.
23:03 Zoe
Xanthippos: Penthesilea wasn't in the Iliad was she?
23:03 Torrey Philemon: This
ridiculously long link may not work here but the footnote on Penthesilea is really
interesting...... (Apollodorus again) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0548%2C002&query=5%3A1
23:05 Zoe
Xanthippos: I just looked in the back of the Iliad I have in here and Penthesilea is
not mentioned in the characters list or in the speeches by persons in the story list
23:07 Morgana Flavius: Here's what
I found about Penthesilea in that Amazonation site (and yes, she was in the Iliad):
23:08 Torrey Philemon: I think she
was in the Iliad too.
23:09 Morgana Flavius: "The
Amazon queen Penthesileia fell beneath the sword of Achilles, who immediately violated her
dead body. Homer attributed this necrophilic act to Achilles's love of her beautiful
corpse. More likely, it was a magic charm to immobilize her vengeful spirit.
Greeks feared the ghosts of slain Amazons."
23:10 Zoe
Xanthippos: oh well, I can't know everything *G* How does one fall in love with
someone one just killed I wonder? Perhaps it wasn't a continuation of defeat but an
action of respect for a fine and beautiful warrior,? Maybe Achilles was
"honoring" her corpse rather than raping it
23:11 Morgana Flavius: The links
"Ancient Amazons" on that Amazonation site lead to interesting texts about the
Amazons.
23:11 Zoe
Xanthippos: and the magic charm part makes as much sense as any of it
23:13 Torrey Philemon: Well,
perhaps "love" for many men is just sexual attraction........I'd really enjoying
researching Penthesilea more, as applies to the Iliad and Trojan war etc. ....Would you
all like to do that? Research the amazon role in the Trojan war, Penthesilea etc. and
share what we find on our Song of Troy board?
23:15 Zoe
Xanthippos: I'd also like to read more about them, I know just about nothing, only the
stereotypical stuff
23:15 Torrey Philemon: I bought two
books about them a few years ago and never got around to reading them. There's some
fascinating information out there.....and apparently many web sites on the subject.
23:16 Zoe
Xanthippos: I am still beset by the 'rules of war' I can't find anything that
spells it all out for me, only McCullough's constant referral to them. Why do I
always latch onto something I can't get at?!
23:16 Torrey Philemon: Is this
popular Xena tv show supposedly an Amazon story? I stay away from it - most of these tv
mythic retellings are like soap opera.
23:17 Torrey Philemon: I'm the same
way, Zoe, always questioning and not wanting to drop an issue. That does make us incessant
researchers however. There are a few sites out there about ancient Greek military tactics
but my guess is they focus more on battle strategy than "moral concepts"
23:18 Morgana Flavius: The Amazons
fascinate me too. I'd like to do that, Torrey, research on Penthesilea and her role in the
the Trojan War. But I'm afraid I have other priorities now. Both professional and
literary.
23:18 Zoe
Xanthippos: My husband watches that show every night and tries to tell me about
it. He's hooked which doesn't compliment any historical truth to it (ooh, maybe
that's too rude...)
23:19 Torrey Philemon: Morgana,
that quote you just typed up about Achilles violating her dead body. Where was that from?
Was that a paraphrasing of the Iliad?
23:19 Zoe
Xanthippos: In my searching I've not turned up much but the Heroic Code of Honor which
doesn't exactly do it. And Morgana, we can do Amazon reading over a period of
time.
23:20 Torrey Philemon: I like my
history to be historical and my fantasy to be fantastical. I mean if a book or movie is
going to base itself on history or a myth, then I think it should be true to it. If it's
fantasy, then let it be fantasy - but not pretend to be history! (For example, I
think Massie's Tiberius was excellent. It was a fiction but it read like history and
appeared to be as true as possible to ancient sources)
23:20 Torrey Philemon: Just curious
what your literary priorities are right now, Morgana.
23:21 Morgana Flavius: The quote is
from http://www.amazonation.com/ancientamazonsII.html
23:22 Zoe
Xanthippos: the lure is in the costuming perhaps...but lots of kids like Xena.
Like I've said many times here, I'm not a TV watcher. Can't do everything and I'd
rather read!
23:22 Torrey Philemon: I wonder if
there's a site that has textual search of the Iliad......but then again it's probably not
too hard to find the part where Penthesilea dies. Probably around book 24 or 25.
23:23 Morgana Flavius: My literary
priorities right now are ancient Rome, right before and right after Cleopatra, Antony
& Augustus
23:23 Zoe
Xanthippos: Oh, my copy of Caesar's Daughter showed up right after Christmas, the
Daughter of Troy has apparently fallen by the wayside, or into cyberspace
23:24 Morgana Flavius: I think they
feature Xena in the TV here, but I haven't seen it.
23:26 Morgana Flavius: I read The
Song of Troy because I was not getting the books I had ordered at that time (Pat Southern
on Antony and Augustus) and The Song of Troy arrived very quick from Amazon UK.
23:27 Torrey Philemon: Are you
going to read Caesar's Daughter soon, Zoe? And Morgana, where do you want " to
go" after Tiberius?
23:27 Torrey Philemon: Ah, so you
might want to go deeper into the time of Cleopatra, Morgana?
23:28 Morgana Flavius: After
Tiberius? Caligula, Nero, etc... ;-)
23:29 Torrey Philemon: I'm not so
sure I'll find Caligula and Nero inspiring! .....maybe it is time to log off. This has
been very enjoyable!
23:29 Torrey Philemon: And I'm glad
you could make it Zoe - I know it's a busy time of year for you. Have you been able to get
into Massie's Tiberius yet?
23:29 Morgana Flavius: I'm not sure
if I'm going back to Cleopatra. I think that after I read Southern's Cleopatra I was
satisfied. I would say that we have acquired a sound knowledge about her by now; but of
course, I am open to new things about her!
23:30 Zoe
Xanthippos: Yes Morgana, we started earlier tonight, if I remember correctly, so as
not to keep you up as late and we have just talked longer ! We must be having fun here!
*s*
23:30 Torrey Philemon: Morgana's
more at home in Rome and I'm more at home in Greece.....but have honestly been drawn into
this time period in Rome history.
23:31 Zoe
Xanthippos: I got out my Tiberius today and the jacket said that it was #2 of 3 on the
Roman Emperors. What's next?
23:31 Morgana Flavius: Yes, Zoe!
I'd say so too: we must be having a hell of a fun here!! :-)
23:31 Torrey Philemon: I might be
open to read Caesar's Women (McCullough); in any case I have it, as well as Caesar's
Daughter (about Julia)
23:31 Zoe
Xanthippos: And I also think I'm about done with Cleopatra though anything new would
be interesting to me as well
23:32 Torrey Philemon: Morgana and
I already read Massie's Augustus....or were you with us then, Zoe? His Caesar's out of
print.
23:32 Morgana Flavius: I think
Massie's next book after Tiberius was about Caesar (Julius)
23:33 Torrey Philemon: And Antony
wasn't an emperor. By the way I do recommend the Baker book on Tiberius. Solid nonfiction,
research, very readable.
23:33 Morgana Flavius: We read
Massie's Augustus and Antony. And now, Tiberius.
23:33 Zoe
Xanthippos: I'd like to read all of McCullough's Rome ones, I've found one used one so
far and Caesar's women sounds particularly intriguing but I like reading sets of books in
order
23:33 Morgana Flavius: Did you hear
about Margaret George's book on Nero?
23:34 Torrey Philemon: Well I guess
we can decide during our Tiberius chat where to go next with Roman history. In regard to
Greek, I'm preparing my mythology class......and want to do a little more with the
Oresteia.........and life will get busier soon. So I guess all of us have to take this
slowly.
23:34 Zoe
Xanthippos: I wasn't with you for Augustus, but my other half, Mara, was. How
quickly she has been forgotten *sigh*
23:34 Torrey Philemon: George has a
new book on Nero?
23:34 Morgana Flavius: I plan to
read all of McCullough's Masters of Rome books. I already ordered the Crown of Grass,
which comes after the First Man in Rome. I intend to read then in the chronological order.
23:35 Torrey Philemon: Yes, your
sister seems to be silent lately, Zoe! <-:
23:35 Torrey Philemon: You're
ambitious, Morgana!
23:36 Morgana Flavius: I read
somewhere that after so much material George had gathered for her Cleopatra book, she
intended to use it for a book on Nero. Can't remember why she chose Nero, but there was a
reason.
23:37 Morgana Flavius: Well,
ladies, if I don't see you before our Tiberius chat on January 2nd, have a very happy new
year, century, millennium!!!
23:37 Torrey Philemon: Ah, it's not
written yet. I just typed in George and Nero at amazon.com and got a book about a remote
pacific island by George Keate and Karen Nero. Ha!
23:38 Zoe
Xanthippos: And a very Happy New Year to you also, Morgana!!
23:38 Torrey Philemon: Have a
wonderful new year, both of you. And it truly is the real millennium now, though no one
seems to care now that the Y2K scare is long past.
23:39 Morgana Flavius: BTW,
Massie's Antony and George's Cleopatra were just released here in Brazil.
23:39 Torrey Philemon: I found a
site a few days ago that consists of nothing but jokes about ancient history. I'll have to
check it out further and entertain you all in 2001..........Sleep well!
23:39 Morgana Flavius: Good night,
Zoe and Torrey!
23:40 Morgana Flavius exits...
23:42 Torrey Philemon exits...
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