Second Tiberius chat March 3, 2001


EXCERPTS FROM Tiberius chat, March 3, 2001


32)  20:45 - Zoe
       I have a general Rome question. Please someone explain something to me: The Roman name system. Take Tiberius' father. T. Claudius Nero. I have noticed that all these guys are referred to by 1st initial, middle and last names. Or maybe they're not middle and last names. Why or what is this? In the Levick book, there are pages of these and I get confused about whom I'm reading.
      20:47 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 20:45 - Zoe 'I have a general Rome question. Please someone explain...')
       Zoe, as to your question about Roman names. Romans didn't have many names (at least the patrician families).
36)  20:48 - Torrey
       Can't help you about Roman names, Zoe... I get very confused by all the different Julia's and Drusus's and everybody else with the same name as their aunt or uncle or cousin....
37)  20:49 - Morgana Flavius
       In the Roman series by McCullough, at the end notes, she gives a fairly good explanation, but it does not solve the problem to sort out who is who...
42)  20:49 - Torrey
       On another note, do you all want to talk about the March 30 demise of AS first before talking about Tiberius?
46)  20:50 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, maybe we could talk about the AS demise for a moment.


47)  20:51 - Torrey
       I know it's going to be impact me hard in a few weeks. All those incredible discussion boards vanishing, all our web pages. There have been some amazing discussions and interchanges at AS the past few years.....I hate to see it dissolve.
48)  20:52 - Zoe
       It is incredibly sad, it going under. All this flitting from place to place now. But I was 'homeless' when I found AS and I can fit in at various places now. Change is never pleasant but..
49)  20:53 - Torrey
       Just wondering what classics and myths there are about grief and loss, particularly in regard to community......relevant reading. Perhaps Euripides, the Trojan Women? (I've never read that one). I don't deal with loss well and wouldn't mind doing some reading on the theme in late March.
50)  20:53 - Morgana Flavius
       I hate to see it going too... Plus, it is the wrong timing... I cannot spend as much time on the pc as I used to... so, to move and/or rebuild all those posts, web pages... it's gonna be a HUGE work!
51)  20:53 - Zoe
       I've gained a lot in my 14 months at AS
52)  20:54 - Morgana Flavius
       I've been there for more than 3 years... An incredible experience.
53)  20:55 - Torrey
       Me too, Morgana. Like you I'm having back trouble....and also many demands in work this month. I just don't have the time to save a lot. And I'm just realizing there are still boards I haven't read that I'd like to have there for reference......stuff I might want to save that I haven't even gotten to yet......and so probably will never get to. (I can't believe that Greek Mythology Link is gone too. That site has been a Bible to me.).....Yes, Morgana, you've been at A.S. six months longer than I have, and have also been quite entrenched there too......It's been a significant part of my life, especially my first 2 years there, from mid 1998 to mid 2000 when I was most active.
54)  20:55 - Zoe
       I probably do deal with loss ok. The first week, back in January,I was sad and disgusted and then I just got on with looking for other places. I can't fix it but I don't want to give up the sense of belonging to something I've found on here. So I'll just keep Zoe going wherever. I've gotten to like her
55)  20:55 - Morgana Flavius
       Somehow, at AS I was able to give "shape" to my historical interest. This amazing idea to give us a "face" (avatar), a home, a place to "meet", a place to play out what I had been reading about all these years...
56)  20:56 - Torrey
       I like Zoe too! <-:
57)  20:56 - Zoe
       well, thank you! I wasn't fishing *s*
58)  20:57 - Torrey
       AS has met many needs, has been so many topics, kinds of discussions and chats, social connections, conferences, web design, homes......
59)  20:57 - Morgana Flavius
       I wouldn't mind losing AS if I could find a place as good as it.
60)  20:58 - Zoe
       That was one of the greatest things about AS Torrey, if I wasn't in the mood for serious reading I could go read RP or play with html - which was another gift to me from AS.
61)  20:58 - Torrey
       The past six months to a year my only AS activity (almost) has been our discussions so I've pulled back from a lot there. At least the three of us are still here....and a few people involved in previous discussions may become involved at TRP.
62)  20:59 - Zoe
       And we'll get new people eventually, when something we post gives someone the urge
63)  20:59 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I would say that the strongest interest I've ever had in AS is our disucssions. And I'm glad we're still here.
64)  20:59 - Torrey
       Both of you said you'd prefer to meet at AS March 30, which makes sense -- it it isn't crashing early. I saw a notice about a memorial meeting March 29 somewhere at AS. Did you all see it?
65)  21:00 - Torrey
       I don't "know" the people who are organizing it, but I think some of the staff will be there. It's on the AS Updates board.
66)  21:00 - Morgana Flavius
       I didn't see any message at AS about a memorial meeting. Maybe we could join.
67)  21:00 - Zoe
       yes, something is going on on the 29th but I'm not sure what it is. Let's try to be on AS the 30th and use this if it fails on us.
68)  21:01 - Morgana Flavius
       If we don't like it, or if we can't log in, or crash after a while, we can come here.
70)  21:02 - Morgana Flavius
       And I would suggest that we come here even if it works at AS. Come here at least to say something and use the topic link created for the Memorial Service. *s*
71)  21:02 - Torrey
       Actually I don't think it's a memorial meeting but it's definitely a meeting related to the close of AS. I have no idea what the focus or atmosphere will be however....Let's us plan for the 30th anyway and check in there on the 29th if we want to. Want to meet at my domus on the 30th if it's still up? (Oh, if only a tornado would come along and blow my domus into Oz and we could meet there in the Emerald City. I don't want to be dissolved by the cyberwinds)
75)  21:03 - Zoe
       Oz might be interesting
72)  21:03 - Morgana Flavius
       BTW, I am enjoying a great deal the classes at Harvard, about the Concept of the Hero!
77)  21:05 - Torrey
       Maybe we can discuss the Hero class, Morgana (there's still a board for it at Nicenet). Perhaps Zoe would be interested in listening to some of the lectures too (I missed the live class this week but haven't been able to get the video to load online)
78)  21:05 - Morgana Flavius
       Let's meet at Torrey's domus, to begin with. We can have a couple of drinks there and then maybe "go out" and try to see who else is there on the 30th. (About Troy, I guess I won't be able to be here on the 17 either)
80)  21:06 - Zoe
       I looked at that site before your email but have not gotten back to it, RL and Tiberius and such but I plan to next week
81)  21:06 - Zoe
       Barhopping on AS!
83)  21:06 - Morgana Flavius
       Last time I checked into Harvard was on Thursday. It worked fine.
84)  21:07 - Zoe
       I've got enough to chat on the 18th
      21:07 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:07 - Zoe 'I've got enough to chat on the 18th...')
       Me too.
85)  21:07 - Torrey
       Actually the Firebrand (which I just started and am enjoying). By the way I also got the goddess/Troy book To Follow the Goddess by Linda Cargill and will read that next.
86)  21:08 - Zoe
       ooh, that one sounds interesting! And I have been so good about avoiding Amazon...
88)  21:15 - Zoe
       Set in my ways here!
      21:15 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:15 - Zoe 'Set in my ways here!...')
      21:10 - Torrey   
      21:11 - Torrey   
       Whoops I messed up my smiley. :->
99)  21:16 - Zoe
       I wondered what that smiley was supposed to mean!
      21:15 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:15 - Zoe 'Set in my ways here!...')
      21:17 - Torrey     (Re: 21:16 - Zoe 'I wondered what that smiley was supposed to mean!...')
       Let's meditate on it :-:
Maybe it's an ancient rune
100)  21:18 - Torrey
       And I haven't even had a drink yet.
101)  21:18 - Zoe
       Ah yes, a most fortunate rune. It means good fortune comes with great changes. (or was that a fortune cookie...?)
102)  21:19 - Morgana Flavius
103)  21:19 - Torrey
       What's the story about the Chinese word for crisis? That is also means opportunity. The collapse of AS is a crisis/opportunity.
      21:19 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:19 - Torrey 'What's the story about the Chinese word for crisis? That...')
       It's Japanese, Torrey.
      21:21 - Zoe     (Re: 21:19 - Torrey 'What's the story about the Chinese word for crisis? That...')
       Or: Where one door is closed, another opens
104)  21:20 - Zoe
       And while we're still babbling here: I've got about 1/3 of Cleo off AS. And Morgana, I spent most of yesterday working on MQ at AV, just so you know I haven't forgotten
      21:20 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:20 - Zoe 'And while we're still babbling here: I've got about...')
       You just read my mind, Zoe! I was going to ask about it. :-)
      21:21 - Torrey     (Re: 21:20 - Zoe 'And while we're still babbling here: I've got about...')
       Cleo board....that's great Zoe! I was just wishing I had that saved. I found a big discussion of Cleopatra on the classical discussion group at last night. That's a very active group.
105)  21:20 - Zoe
       I don't have a bit of Chinese or Japanese.
106)  21:21 - Torrey
       I'm also wishing (after reading Morgana's post on Dante, in response to ? Tony ?) that we had the whole Dante board saved.
107)  21:22 - Morgana Flavius
       And Zoe, if you have saved the MQ Greek Mythology thread in Word 97 (doc file), I would appreciate if you could email me the file.
108)  21:22 - Zoe
       If you two would like, I have a CD R/W and if we can't decide where to put these posts I can make one up for each of you from Aug, Cleo, Troy, Oresteia and whatever else and send it to you
      21:24 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:22 - Zoe 'If you two would like, I have a CD R/W...')
       That would be great, Zoe! (Somehow, I do not feel I am taking advantage of your hard work, Zoe! LOL!)
      21:25 - Torrey     (Re: 21:22 - Zoe 'If you two would like, I have a CD R/W...')
       Zoe that would be incredible.....a cd of the posts. Much appreciative.
109)  21:23 - Morgana Flavius
       I was going to ask Zoe for the Dante board too.
110)  21:24 - Zoe
       Everything is in .txt but I can convert it I think - hmmm - I have Office 2000, don't know which version of word that is, but I would imagine in converts down. I'll look into it and send it, I have the Greek myth one - does that mean you want to put up the archive yourself? or what?
      21:25 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:24 - Zoe 'Everything is in .txt but I can convert it I...')
       If you're going to convert, convert it to rtf, Zoe. It takes less space and still keeps the formatting. And Word 97 reads it ok.
111)  21:24 - Zoe
       got Dante too
112)  21:25 - Zoe
       it's not back up at FabBib yet though, getting to it
113)  21:26 - Torrey
       (By the way I was just for a moment in another window looking for the March 29 announcement. Here it is...
114)  21:27 - Morgana Flavius
       I would love to have Cleo, the Emperors (Aug & Tib), Dante, Ovid, all our wonderful discussions stored somehow here, where I could get to them without having to be online!
115)  21:27 - Zoe
       ok, send me your addresses in Email and I'll get to it fairly soon - please, no breath holding though :)
      21:28 - Torrey     (Re: 21:27 - Zoe 'ok, send me your addresses in Email and I'll get...')
       Take your time, Zoe! I'd rather wait awhile and have it comprehensive. This is a great service you're providing. Who knows, maybe you can sell it commercially and we can get royalties. <-:
116)  21:28 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, Zoe! Would not know how to thank you for that!
117)  21:28 - Zoe
       I don't have the Ovid Spa from MQ as you said you were getting that one off but the Ovid from FB I have, all mixed up with the other epics. I want to slpit them
118)  21:28 - Morgana Flavius
       *reading the link by Torrey*
119)  21:29 - Zoe
       I can't sell it - I didn't write all of it!
120)  21:29 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I have our whole Ovid discussion. Can send it over to you, Zoe, and you can put it on the CD.
122)  21:29 - Torrey
       I only have the Oresteia saved, which I think you already have, Zoe.
123)  21:31 - Torrey
       What I really want to save are the two Celebrations of Women, but that's about 45 web sites and another 30 or so chat transcripts.... By the way, Zoe, I have all the chat transcripts I've been involved in via Mythquest and FabBib saved on my computer. Iliad, Odyssey, Dante, Ovid, Cleopatra, Augustus, Tiberius, etc. I can make those available to you and you could include them on the cds.
      21:32 - Torrey     (Re: 21:31 - Torrey 'What I really want to save are the two Celebrations...')
       (feeling better because I can contribute something to the AS rescue committee - ie the chat transcripts)
124)  21:32 - Morgana Flavius
       Ok, I don't know who this Petraites Lucretius is (the author of the AS post about the 29th meeting). But the folks he mentions as possible presences in the meeting, are worth to show up!
      21:33 - Torrey     (Re: 21:32 - Morgana Flavius 'Ok, I don't know who this Petraites Lucretius is (the...')
       I don't have a personal friendship with any of those mentioned. Do you, Morgana?
      21:39 - Torrey     (Re: 21:33 - Torrey 'I don't have a personal friendship with any of those...')
       Here's a list of people planning to attend the March 29 meeting.
      21:34 - Zoe     (Re: 21:32 - Morgana Flavius 'Ok, I don't know who this Petraites Lucretius is (the...')
       Oh yeah, I responded to that one and I don't know many of those people even by their names, different circles I suppose
125)  21:33 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, if can combine our efforts, every one sending Zoe what we have, that CD will be a "diamond" among the most precious things in AS.
      21:34 - Torrey     (Re: 21:33 - Morgana Flavius 'Yes, if can combine our efforts, every one sending Zoe...')
       Hmm, we better get everyone's contact information who posted, so that when we need copyright permission to make it a commercial cd and market it worldwide we can contact them <-:
126)  21:35 - Morgana Flavius
       I had close contact with Monaless, Augustus Flaminius (a darling!) and for a time with Freddy. Till he started to act crazy and told me some of the worse things I've ever had to hear from an online acquaintance...
127)  21:35 - Zoe
       I have the Aug and Tib chats, and the Troy I think. Not the Cleos yet
      21:36 - Torrey     (Re: 21:35 - Zoe 'I have the Aug and Tib chats, and the Troy...')
       Don't worry about saving the book chats Zoe. I can provide you with all of those....except any at FabBib that I didn't attend from the book discussion board which seems to have gone defunct over time. If you save the forums/boards, that will be fine.
128)  21:36 - Morgana Flavius
       Gnaeus C was an active member of MythQuest and a wonderful person too! Well, Strabo I guess we all know from his funny posts.
129)  21:36 - Torrey
       (I think we're more preoccupied with processing the end of AS then focusing on Tiberius tonight)
      21:37 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:36 - Torrey '(I think we're more preoccupied with processing the end of...')
       Tiberius?! Oh! Were we supposed to talk about him? (LOL)
      21:38 - Zoe     (Re: 21:36 - Torrey '(I think we're more preoccupied with processing the end of...')
       I was wondering what happened to him!
130)  21:38 - Morgana Flavius
       Ok. I'll stick to our initial program if you two are willing to.
      21:40 - Torrey     (Re: 21:38 - Morgana Flavius 'Ok. I'll stick to our initial program if you two...')
       In regard to March 30, Morgana? Meeting at AS if it's up.....just us three with any particular guests we both wish to invite....? And maybe sneaking a peak into the March 29 meeting on our own if you wish to do so?
131)  21:39 - Zoe
       It's only natural that we are focusing on the fall of our own tiny Empire
      21:42 - Torrey     (Re: 21:39 - Zoe 'It's only natural that we are focusing on the fall...')
       Actually Zoe, the parallels are interesting. How empires fall, how online communities fall. I wonder if there are any similar causes.(right now I'm thinking about my objections to the Vines, how I don't like being "bombed" and sabotaged and Tiberius' paranoia late in life <-:. I need my own Pretorian guard to protect me)
132)  21:42 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, with that list of attendants to the 29th meeting, it's worth peeking into it. I am just sorry that Heraklia cannot make it. I really like her a lot!
133)  21:42 - Zoe
       Just so long as you're not putting all your affairs into the hands of a slippery Sejanus!
      21:43 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:42 - Zoe 'Just so long as you're not putting all your affairs...')
       And I hope that Torrey does not give us a Caligula as a successor! Brrrrrr!
      21:45 - Torrey     (Re: 21:43 - Morgana Flavius 'And I hope that Torrey does not give us a...')
       Torrey's past menopause so she can't provide a successor in the flesh. Not that that stopped the Roman emperors......(Baker points out in his chapter on the Legacy of Tiberius) that the breakdown of succession due to the later emperors being bad choices led to the development of Christianity. As the central government broke down and people's faith in it as well, Christianity could take root.
      21:47 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:45 - Torrey 'Torrey's past menopause so she can't provide a successor in...')
       Interesting theory. But why Christianity and not Mithraism, for instance?
      21:47 - Torrey     (Re: 21:47 - Morgana Flavius 'Interesting theory. But why Christianity and not Mithraism, for instance?...')
       Christianity apparently had much more devoted and zealous followers than Mithraism (why I can't tell you!)
      21:48 - Torrey     (Re: 21:47 - Torrey 'Christianity apparently had much more devoted and zealous followers than...')
       Come to think of it, Jesus' messages - compassion, forgiveness, acceptance etc. was quite a contrast to the behavior of Caligula and some of the post Tiberius' emperors. But I haven't really studied that time past Tiberius.....
134)  21:43 - Zoe
       And the list of "outs" may be more funnery, it's hard to tell these days
135)  21:44 - Torrey
       Ah Sejanus! According to Baker, Tiberius knew about Sejanus' treachery years ahead of time and carefully plotted his downfall. But Massie portrayed Tiberius' awareness of Sejanus' treachery as occurring late.....and being devastating to him.
      21:45 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:44 - Torrey 'Ah Sejanus! According to Baker, Tiberius knew about Sejanus' treachery...')
       I think that Tiberius did become a bit paranoid in the end. How could he not be? After all the years seeing how his powerful antecessor manipulated people & power!
136)  21:45 - Zoe
       I've been really interested watching the reactions of people and what they are or are not doing. There are the complainers, the whiners, the cryers, the builders of new worlds, the truly angry, the ones that are letting loose with grudges they've apparently been harboring for years, the ones that are taking our their frustrations on other citizans, the ever present ostriches - even now
      21:46 - Torrey     (Re: 21:45 - Zoe 'I've been really interested watching the reactions of people and...')
       How interesting, Zoe, learning from watching people's reactions (That's part of why I'm so hooked on the Survivor show, watching how people react differently to stressful conditions, either bonding or turning against each other)
137)  21:47 - Zoe
       It seems to me that Tiberius was a really lonely person and having been so duped by Sejanus finished him off socially, so to speak. He was always reclusive but when Sejanus seemed to be offering real friendship he was sucked right in
      21:50 - Torrey     (Re: 21:47 - Zoe 'It seems to me that Tiberius was a really lonely...')
       Sejanus' betrayal did seem to be the last straw....but he had retreated to Capri before that. According to Baker, the earlier turning point was the argument with Livia over a juror she wanted, and her getting back at Tiberius by showing him a letter from Augustus in which Augustus expressed his negative opinions about Tiberius. Apparently this hurt Tiberius terribly.
      21:50 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:47 - Zoe 'It seems to me that Tiberius was a really lonely...')
       Agree. And would add to it that Sejanus knew what were Tiberius' weak points. Specially his fear for his life. Tiberius knew and Sejanus knew that Tiberius knew that the head of the Roman Empire would remain alive only as long as he could put down all his competitors.
138)  21:48 - Zoe
       hmmm, that is interesting. I've always wondered how a minor cult from Judea could have become what it has. Fertile ground
139)  21:50 - Zoe
       Massie's portrayal of Sejanus as a snake was very good. All his "oh, you don't really want to know this..." and such
140)  21:51 - Zoe
       Tiberius seemed awfully naive though, for a grown man. He MUST have been aware that intrigue was possible earlier than he did - or maybe he just didn't want to deal with it
      21:52 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:51 - Zoe 'Tiberius seemed awfully naive though, for a grown man. ...')
       Of course he knew about the intrigues earlier. But maybe earlier, he felt more powerful to deal with them. Sometimes you lose (moral) strenght as you age.
      21:53 - Torrey     (Re: 21:52 - Morgana Flavius 'Of course he knew about the intrigues earlier. But maybe...')
       Sometimes you get tired of fighting and want to retreat onto a cyberisland and just chat about books with your friends rather than participate in the real world <-:
      21:52 - Torrey     (Re: 21:51 - Zoe 'Tiberius seemed awfully naive though, for a grown man. ...')
       Massie's book was fictional. Baker who attempts to write nonfiction says that Tiberius had spies around Sejanus for a number of years. From the time that Sejanus asked to marry Livilla (now who was she anyway? I'm getting the lines of descent all messed up)
      21:54 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:52 - Torrey 'Massie's book was fictional. Baker who attempts to write nonfiction...')
       Livilla was the wife of Tiberius' son (with Vipsania), Drusus. When Drusus died, Livilla was a widow and had a son (Tiberius' only descendant by bloodline). Marrying her, would give Sejanus a VERY good position in the royal family.
      21:56 - Torrey     (Re: 21:54 - Morgana Flavius 'Livilla was the wife of Tiberius' son (with Vipsania), Drusus....')
       Right, she was married to Drusus...and helped poison Drusus. But did she have a notable ancestry before that? Was she from the Julian or Claudian family?
141)  21:51 - Torrey
       One question on my mind - what do you all view as Sejanus' aim anyway? Was he hoping to worm (or snake) his way into the line of succession? To dispose of all possible successors from both the Julians and Claudians so he would gain ultimate power?
      21:53 - Zoe     (Re: 21:51 - Torrey 'One question on my mind - what do you all...')
       According to the site Morgana gave us the link to:What exactly Sejanus was aiming at remains a matter of intense debate. [[20]] The Prefect's attacks against Agrippina and his proposal to marry Drusus's widow, Livilla, suggest that he was attempting to follow the precedent of Agrippa, that is, an outsider who became the emperor's successor through a combination of overt loyalty, necessity, and a family alliance forged by marriage. Tiberius, perhaps sensitive to this ambition, rejected Sejanus's initial proposal to marry Livilla in A.D. 25, but later put it about that he had withdrawn his objections so that, in A.D. 30., Sejanus was betrothed to Livilla. The Prefect's family connection to the Imperial house was now imminent. In A.D. 31 Sejanus held the consulship with the emperor as his colleague, an honor Tiberius reserved only for heirs to the throne. Further, when Sejanus surrendered the consulship early in the year, he was granted a share of the emperor's proconsular power. When he was summoned to a meeting of the Senate on 18 October in that year he probably expected to receive a share of the tribunician power; with that he would, after all, have become Tiberius's Agrippa. [[21]]
      21:55 - Torrey     (Re: 21:53 - Zoe 'According to the site Morgana gave us the link to:What...')
       What isn't clear to me -- could Sejanus have legitimately become a successor to Tiberius? It seemed that he already had the maximum amount of power anyone could have without being emperor.
142)  21:52 - Zoe
       Sejanus seemed to feed Tiberius fears - making him more and more paranoid
143)  21:54 - Zoe
       I think Sejanus just saw an opportunity and as time progressed got greedier when he saw how easy it was to mess with Tiberius
144)  21:56 - Zoe
       Had Tiberius died, with Sejanus influence and powers in the Senate, sure, he might could have set himself up as Emperor - especially if he killed off all the contenders
145)  21:56 - Torrey
       One character in Massie that Baker never mentioned....that may have been fictional....the German boy.
      22:01 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:56 - Torrey 'One character in Massie that Baker never mentioned....that may have...')
       I think the German boy existed. He saved Tiberius (guess Tacitus mentions it) during a battle. But their homosexual relationship is probably fictional.
146)  21:59 - Torrey
       Here's another question for you all.....why did Agrippina hate Tiberius so much? because she believed Tiberius was responsible for Germanicus' death?
      22:03 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 21:59 - Torrey 'Here's another question for you all.....why did Agrippina hate Tiberius...')
       Tiberius hated Agrippina because she was the current leader of the Julian party. She was the daughter of Julia (Augustus daughter) and Agripa! Her children had more right to claim the "throne" than Tiberius or his children.
      22:04 - Torrey     (Re: 22:03 - Morgana Flavius 'Tiberius hated Agrippina because she was the current leader of...')
       Tiberius may have hated Agrippina but he actually passed over his own son's Drusus' sons and chose her sons for succession - apparently as a means of seeking peace with her. I get the impression that he really did try to win her over but she never budged an inch toward him.
      22:07 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 22:04 - Torrey 'Tiberius may have hated Agrippina but he actually passed over...')
       Tiberius only chose Agrippina's child (Caligula) as his successor AFTER his son Drusus died. And he made Caligula swear that he would "train" Tiberius' grandchild (Gemellus) as his co-ruler. Gemelus was a very young when Tiberius died.
      22:08 - Torrey     (Re: 22:07 - Morgana Flavius 'Tiberius only chose Agrippina's child (Caligula) as his successor AFTER...')
       What happened to Gemellus? Did Gaius Caligula get rid of him?
147)  21:59 - Morgana Flavius
       Livilla was from both Antonius (remember Mark Antony?) and Claudian families. She was the daughter of Antonia (Antony's daughter by Octavia) and Drusus (the beloved brother of Tiberius). Antonia & Drusus were the parents of Livilla, Germanicus and... tara! Claudius!
      22:00 - Torrey     (Re: 21:59 - Morgana Flavius 'Livilla was from both Antonius (remember Mark Antony?) and Claudian...')
       Thanks, Morgana! I get lost in the family tree. Need to map this out. (I never even could keep track of my own uncles aunts and cousins <-: )
148)  22:00 - Zoe
       the German boy was the "scribe, archivist in this one, fiction I think
149)  22:02 - Torrey
       I liked how Massie portrayed Antonia, and had her be the one to tell Tiberius the truth about Sejanus.....This isn't mentioned in Baker though and may be totally fictional. (still haven't read Tacitus either!)
      22:03 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 22:02 - Torrey 'I liked how Massie portrayed Antonia, and had her be...')
       Tacitus mentions Antonia and that it was a letter from her that warned Tiberius about Sejanus. This bit seems not fictional.
150)  22:03 - Zoe
       I've tried to find out more about Agrippina but sources are very scarce. According to the Massie:Antonia was disgusted by Agrippina's constant complaining, said she'd been like that as a child. And that her constant nagging and complaining made his [Germanicus] life a misery.

      22:03 - Torrey     (Re: 22:03 - Zoe 'I've tried to find out more about Agrippina but sources...')
       Yes, Agrippina has never appeared as a pleasant character. It's a shame she's had so much influence on history's portrayal of Tiberius.
151)  22:03 - Zoe
       She apparently hated him before, she seemed to always be plotting against him - perhaps she was ambitious for Germanicus
      22:05 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 22:03 - Zoe 'She apparently hated him before, she seemed to always be...')
       I think she was ambitious for her children, who were the only ones with Augustus blood.
      22:07 - Torrey     (Re: 22:05 - Morgana Flavius 'I think she was ambitious for her children, who were...')
       I agree that she was ambitious for her children....and also wonder about the means by which women had power during this time. Often they chose to wield it through gaining power for their sons. And perhaps since they couldn't easily hold public power, they could express their power through battling their "enemies". Often people use "power against" when they can't succeed with "power for".
152)  22:05 - Zoe
       Yes, I agree there, Morgana, ambitious for her children, which of couse would elevate her as well
153)  22:07 - Torrey
       (I wonder what a mess all our RE:s are going to make of the transcript LOL!)
154)  22:07 - Zoe
       The elements of magical curses found in Germanicus' bedroom walls when he was sick before he died - did Agrippina plant them in an attempt to discredit Piso? and thereby maybe discrediting Tiberius?
      22:11 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 22:07 - Zoe 'The elements of magical curses found in Germanicus' bedroom walls...')
       Robert Graves says that who planted the curse signs at Germanicus' bedroom was his old little son Caligula!
155)  22:08 - Zoe
       yes, the RE:s get confusing to see after a while I think
      22:09 - Torrey     (Re: 22:08 - Zoe 'yes, the RE:s get confusing to see after a while...')
       Maybe we ought to forget the RE's except when we're replying to something from many posts beforehand....
156)  22:09 - Zoe
       maybe this woman was just a shrew for the sake of being a shrew.
157)  22:10 - Morgana Flavius
       Let's not forget one of the (for me) most interesting theories that would explain Tiberius' exile to Rhodes and Julia's (both of them) banishment: the struggle for power was being fought between the Julian and Claudian parties! Within the imperial family. Livia & Tiberius vs. Augustus & Julia. Agrippina was 100% Augusuts party. And of course, on the surface, Augustus & Livia were the best friends. While they were actually striving to see which family would be the sucessor.
      22:12 - Torrey     (Re: 22:10 - Morgana Flavius 'Let's not forget one of the (for me) most interesting...')
       Interesting point, Morgana. That Augustus and Livia were really in a Julian/Claudian struggle. Baker points that out too. Livia was often secretly undermining Augustus' aims....
158)  22:12 - Morgana Flavius
       Ok, agree with the RE's.
159)  22:13 - Morgana Flavius
       Macro, Caligula's "Sejanus"(=Chief Pretorian Guard) got rid of Gemellus for Caligula.
160)  22:13 - Zoe
       Yes, I think the Julian/Claudian power struggle lies at the bottom of a lot of this
161)  22:13 - Torrey
       Is that the same Macro that Tiberius used to trap Sejanus?
162)  22:14 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I guess that this internal/royal family stuggle for succession explains a lot of otherwise unexplainable things in the early empire.
163)  22:15 - Torrey
       Also I think it was very hard for a woman to use power in a straightforward and effective way back then. Livia comes across as controlling, moralistic, priggish. Agrippina as a shrew. There weren't many legitimate outlets so their expressions of power were often devious or manipulative....
164)  22:16 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, Torrey. The same Macro that Tiberius used to trap Sejanus. He became friends with Caligula. When Tiberius was not dead yet, Macro thnking the old emperor had died, ran to Caligula to salute him as the new emperor. But then Tiberius woke up, to the surprise of both Macro and Caligula. Not much later, Tiberius died for real. Some say he was smothed by Macro.
165)  22:16 - Torrey
       The Claudian/Julian struggle is an underlying theme in Caesar's Daughter too. Although it's fiction, it's obviously well-researched. I think it read like a genuine autobiography too.
166)  22:17 - Morgana Flavius
       Pat Southern also mentions this Julian/Claudian struggle in her book about Augustus.
167)  22:19 - Morgana Flavius
       Now, think about Caligula: he was Julian (from Agrippina's side), Claudian (from Germanicus' side) AND Antonius (by his maternal grandmother's side)
168)  22:19 - Torrey
       You know I find myself wanting to like Tiberius and focus on his positive traits, but I'm inclined to believe too that he had a very cruel and oppressive streak. I'm most bothered by his action against foreign cults, Jews, astrologers..... he banished a lot of groups, tribes, nations, and executed many. That Pretorian Guard was like the military in Old Russia....ready to jump at the first indication of subterfuge or treason, without proof. Suspicion was enough.
169)  22:20 - Torrey
       Still there, Zoe? What's on your mind?
170)  22:22 - Zoe
       I think that years of knowing people were plotting around him made Tiberius much more paranoid as he got older. Especially after Sejanus duped him. Fear breeds more fear and the climate of Rome was one of informants running rampant
171)  22:22 - Zoe
       Massie said: Informers were rife. Everybody accused everybody of everything. As a result of all this the Senate demanded that "candidates for public office should be more closely scrutinised, and those rumoured to be of scandalous life should be excluded." Now what does this remind you of?!
172)  22:23 - Torrey
       Yes, Zoe....and he didn't really become such a tyrant until his last years, when he was mostly trying to protect himself and his heirs.
173)  22:24 - Zoe
       As we have seen that Tiberius seriously lacked social skills, all this plotting probably drove him round the bend so to speak
174)  22:24 - Zoe
       I think that by his very late years, he was mostly trying to protect himself
175)  22:25 - Torrey
       (interesting, how in the U.S. the Republicans battling Clinton and making so much of the sex scandal really had political aims... and how the exile of Julia etc. supposedly because of her adultery, really may have been primarily about politics)
176)  22:25 - Zoe
       I also found the part in the Massie concerning Livia in her great old age interesting - from that description it sounds like she had alzheimers
177)  22:26 - Torrey
       Suetonius has some very graphic details about Tiberius' perverse sexuality. I wonder where he got that information. Agrippina's DIARIES? Other sources suggest that Tiberius lived a very austere life.....especially on Capri. Hard to know what to believe.
178)  22:26 - Zoe
       if she was truly confused, it would explain why Tiberius stayed away from her more than ever when she was dying - no point, she didn't know him all the time and wasn't making sense
179)  22:29 - Zoe
       the more I read on Tiberius and the social problems in Rome then, it sounds for all the world like the grocery store tabloids today. These people werne't supposed to be having any sex. Evil that. So they jumped on any rumor and focused on it and made it grow. The classical historians may have been using tabloids for their sources!
180)  22:29 - Torrey
       I suspect that Livia no longer had Tiberius' interest at heart once he gained power.....and was primarily a busybody interfering in his own aims. He probably couldn't tolerate her control and manipulations, especially since he was a Claudian siding with the Julians/Augustans, and she was battling for the Claudians...Come to think of it, he couldn't really rest on any side of the controversy as the Julians (Julia, Agrippina) for the most part rejected him and viewed him as an enemy.
181)  22:29 - Zoe
       Where have you got off to Morgana?
182)  22:30 - Torrey
       Yes I was just going to ask where Morgana disappeared to, too. Bathroom break or food break or wine pouring or browsing in another window? <-:
183)  22:30 - Zoe
       yes, at that point Livia had 'won'.
184)  22:31 - Torrey
       oh mor-gannnnnnnnnnnn-aaaaa!!
185)  22:32 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh! I crashed and then my pc just froze. Had to start all over again!
186)  22:32 - Zoe
       and back to the plotters: Did either of you read my Scribonia post? Comments?
187)  22:33 - Torrey
       glad you're back, Morgana......and Zoe, yes I read your Scribonia post and found it very interesting. Would like to know more about her and her role but feel too ignorant to respond to what you wrote.
188)  22:34 - Zoe
       I don't know anything more than I wrote there, and that was fished out of the Levick for the most part.
189)  22:34 - Torrey
       I have Levick but haven't had a chance to read it. It doesn't look very inviting (the Baker bio was). Do you recommend it?
190)  22:35 - Zoe
       Levick seemed to think it very important, these 'descendants of Scribonia' and it makes Julia make a bit more sense when viewed in this light
191)  22:35 - Morgana Flavius
       (I was reading back, trying to catch up)
192)  22:36 - Zoe
       I haven't read all the Levick but I like it and find it quite readable except for the aforementioned Roman 1st intial, two other names, problem.


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