Second Tiberius chat March 3, 2001




 

EXCERPTS FROM Tiberius chat, March 3, 2001

continued from previous page

      22:39 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 22:36 - Zoe 'I haven't read all the Levick but I like it...')
       About the name problem, Zoe: it is only for "initated" too (LOL). What happens is that some first names were chosen by certain families and not by others. For ex., Tiberius and Drusus is a name used by the Claudians. So, if you see the surname Claudius, the if the first initial is a T, then it is Tiberius, and not Tafarina (just ex).
      22:43 - Torrey     (Re: 22:39 - Morgana Flavius 'About the name problem, Zoe: it is only for 'initated'...')
       Yes, that's very informative, Morgana. I have been wondering why the keep repeating the same names.
193)  22:41 - Morgana Flavius
       Now, the problem is when you want to tell father from son when both have exactly the same names, like Tiberius Claudius Nero, which was Tiberius' father name as well as his own name too. Gotta find out by the context, I guess...
194)  22:41 - Zoe
       I also find myself horribly fascinated with how Sejanus managed to manipulate at Tiberius. I keep thinking back to all the cozening up this guy did. Massie says: "Sejanus had made a prisoner of Tiberius. He only had information from Sejanus, and began to realize that he did not necessarily have the truth. Sejanus taught Tiberius to fear others, working perhaps with the natural tendencies already there in Tiberius' personality. And then Tiberius began to fear Sejanus.
How could Tiberius have allowed this to happen? Augustus certainly would not have. But there is the difference in humans. "
195)  22:42 - Zoe
       oohhh! That explains a lot Morgana! Thank you! (light bulb going on here!)
196)  22:44 - Morgana Flavius
       I think that Augustus was clever enough to change his Chief of the Pretorian guard every so often, not to build up a Sejanus. The Pretorian Guard, later on in the empire, was ultimately the ones who decided who would be the next emperors!
      22:46 - Torrey     (Re: 22:44 - Morgana Flavius 'I think that Augustus was clever enough to change his...')
       Interesting, Morgana. A kind of military rule, the military ruling behind the scenes.
197)  22:44 - Zoe
       And then near the end of the Massie book:Tiberius is reflecting on his freed German, Sigmund, who he finds naive. Tiberius blames this on Sigmund's inability to "comprehend the complexity of civilised life and civilised beings" since he is a foreigner. And just why does Tiberius think that Rome is so 'civilised' at this point? It certainly doesn't sound it.
198)  22:44 - Morgana Flavius
       McCullough is my source for that info (in her end notes about Roman names).
199)  22:45 - Torrey
       According to Baker, Sejanus made a game of seducing all the high-powered wives and pumping them for information. Livilla was not the first. He had wormed/snaked his way into the beds of the wives of many of the men of power, and undermined them that way. (And I too wonder how Tiberius was so naive with Sejanus. Though perhaps at that time he just wanted to get away from it all and convinced himself that Sejanus was more trustworthy than he was......OR he relied on Sejanus while simultaneously gaining intelligence against him)
200)  22:47 - Torrey
       Uh, Zoe, definitions of civilized back then are probably different than we have now. Remember the contrast between the Romans and the barbaric tribes of Germany for example. Or the cultures that still practiced human sacrifice (and yes I know the gladiatorial games were not so civilized and unbarbaric!)
201)  22:47 - Morgana Flavius
       About Tiberius "naivité"... Let's not forget that Augustus was the first one to be allowed to have armed guards around him WITHIN Rome walls. So by the time Tiberius got the "throne", the power of these guards was not yet something so "obvious".
202)  22:48 - Zoe
       I think Tiberius only gained intelligence on Sejanus later, when he realized Sejanus was a real threat to his own person. Before - it may have just been the easiest way if Tiberius truly didn't want to be Emperor, to let Sejanus run things and then Tiberius could pretend to have his own life the way he wanted it.
      22:48 - Torrey     (Re: 22:48 - Zoe 'I think Tiberius only gained intelligence on Sejanus later, when...')
       I agree Zoe. Probably Tiberius trusted Sejanus at first, then slowly began to distrust him and started checking him out.
203)  22:48 - Morgana Flavius
       I agree with you, Zoe.
204)  22:51 - Morgana Flavius
       Another interesting aspect about Tiberius: he was the first one that received the rulership from his "father". Tiberius was truly the first Roman emperor in the strictest sense. Up to Augustus, all the Roman rulers (including Augustus) were Republicans who gained their power through legal laws passed by the Senate. And always on a "temporary" basis. Always renewed, of course.
205)  22:51 - Torrey
       Both of you have read, Tacitus, right? I haven't. What was Tacitus' take on all of this?
206)  22:52 - Zoe
       One of the defining qualities of "Civilisation" is that it is the state of a society when basic needs have been met and society can evolve into higher forms. Higher forms being governemts, arts, literature, social programs, etc. Basic needs = food, shelter, and SAFETY. It does not appear to me that many people in Rome at this time were safe. Sure, they weren't going to be eaten by sabre toothed tigers but they were very likely to make a misstatement and find themselves informed upon
      22:54 - Torrey     (Re: 22:52 - Zoe 'One of the defining qualities of 'Civilisation' is that it...')
       A lot of cultures have viewed themselves as safe even today which are not safe politically. There are still many countries where it's not safe to speak your mind or disagree openly with the establishment.
207)  22:54 - Zoe
       Right, Morgana, and in being the first to succeed, there was no set of rules to go by. Both Tiberius and the Senate may have been a t a loss to know what to do next
208)  22:55 - Morgana Flavius
       For me, Tacitus had his own "Republican" agenda when he wrote his story. He saw in Tiberius a good opportunity to show everybody that this "new" Imperial way of governing Rome was corrupted since the beginning. He tactfully left Augustus out, as for Tacitus, Augustus was not an Emperor. Tiberius was (no doubt about his hereditary ascension to power). And Tacitus needed to show that people who gained power as a result of a family inheritance, were always corrupted.
      22:58 - Torrey     (Re: 22:55 - Morgana Flavius 'For me, Tacitus had his own 'Republican' agenda when he...')
       Interesting, Morgana. You  have a clear grasp of the political context. I wonder....what is the definition of Emperor anyway? It's  different from King (which Julius Caesar didn't want to be). Who was the first to declare himself Emperor, anyway, Augustus or Tiberius?
209)  22:56 - Torrey
       And on a related note, Baker pointed out the Tiberius was the only Roman ruler to be so tolerant of opposing views. At least early in his reign. He was   accepting of people with different views and legislation which was passed which he opposed. He was in favor of the Senate and a more democratic government and preferred NOT to have all the power.....but later in life he appeared to change as he became more afraid for himself and his heirs, and he was increasingly intolerant. Apparently this was a radical shift.
210)  22:57 - Morgana Flavius
       Tacitus lived his last years under the Emperor Domitian (or was it Dioclecian?), one of the cruelest emperors Rome had ever seen till then. No wonder he hated the Imperial government.
      23:00 - Torrey     (Re: 22:57 - Morgana Flavius 'Tacitus lived his last years under the Emperor Domitian (or...')
       Actually I recall now reading ABOUT Tacitus, and how he opposed Domitian and couldn't do so directly, so he colored his interpretation of Tiberius in order to make certain points about Domitian. He portrayed Tiberius as possessing some of the traits he opposed in Domitian in order to indirectly publicize his attitudes toward Domitian.
211)  22:58 - Zoe
       I'm not saying that the world is truly civilised today either. If one's life is in danger from the tiger or from the informant, there is an atmosphere of fear created which tends to over ride all other endeavors. Yes, it just goes on and on, and will likely continue as long as power is such a drug.
212)  22:59 - Morgana Flavius
       On the civilization issue, something important to have in mind: the Roman empire was not only Rome. Rome was actually a tiny part of it (although, the center of it). The VAST majority of the Roman empire, during Tiberius'reign, lived in peace and could have felt very safe.
213)  23:00 - Zoe
       That makes a lot of sense, Morgana, Tacitus would have most certainly viewed the government through his own experience
214)  23:00 - Morgana Flavius
       Ok, here's what Emperor meant: Imperator. Imperator was the name by which the soldiers saluted their generals after a great victory in battle.
215)  23:01 - Zoe
       And yes to that also. I have read that the Provinces were quite well off during Tiberius' reign, that it was only in Rome itself that all this intrigue was happening
216)  23:04 - Morgana Flavius
       The difference between a King and an Emperor, theoretically, would be that a King IS an hereditary position. An Emperor must be acclaimed. By who? By the soldiers. So, an Emperor is the guy who actually has the ultimate military command. What Augustus did was to join these two things: his successor had the supreme military command (all legions had to obey to him and that's why Aug successor had to be a good military commander) AND he belonged to his own family (in T's case, by adoption). From then on, Emperors were always appointed by their antecessors but if the military (i.e. the Pretorian guard, who was the closest military body to the Emperor) didn't like him, they would kill him and appoint the next one.
      23:06 - Torrey     (Re: 23:04 - Morgana Flavius 'The difference between a King and an Emperor, theoretically, would...')
       Very informative, Morgana. Again, you know a lot about the political context of those times. Thanks for clarifying the Emperor issue.
217)  23:05 - Torrey
       Just looked up my Roman's historian article.....on Tacitus: "Tacitus was, after all, a respected member of the Senate, who retained his position partly by keeping silent in regard to, (or perhaps even condoning) the tyrannical murders of other senators by Emperor Domitian. Unable to unwilling to protest the widespread assassinations instigated by Domitian, Tacitus channeled his intensely conflicting emotions ( both anger and guilt ) upon Tiberius, whom he viewed as a prototype for Domitian, at least in regard to his brutality and treatment of his political enemies. His choice to vent his anger against Tiberius was further reinforced by using as a primary source of material the biased Memoirs of the Younger Agrippina, daughter of the Agrippina who so blatantly opposed Tiberius. Without concern for accuracy, Tacitus repeated the villainous statements of Agrippina against Tiberius, and also her falsities and exaggerated praise in regard to Germanicus."
218)  23:05 - Zoe
       What a tidy system, Morgana
219)  23:05 - Morgana Flavius
       My explanation looks very simple, but it is not. There's a lot between the lines...
220)  23:06 - Zoe
       No, I meant that facetiously, the "if the guard didn't like the Emperor they just killed him and moved on" part
221)  23:07 - Zoe
       Memoirs of Agrippina the Younger? Are they still extant?
222)  23:08 - Morgana Flavius
       Agrippina, the Younger, was Caligula's sister. She had a son: Nero. After Tiberius, Caligula was Julian/Claudian. After Caligula, Claudius (who had been appointed by the Pretorian guard after they murdered Caligula) was a Claudian. After Claudius, came Nero, who was a Julian.
223)  23:09 - Morgana Flavius
       No, Agrippina's memoirs are not extant, Zoe. I suspect that they may have had the same end of Augustus' personal memoirs, as fictionalized by Williams.
224)  23:09 - Torrey
       No, the Memoirs of Agrippina aren't existing today. But supposedly they were the primary source of Tacitus and a source for Suetonius. So quite obviously, they provided a very biased report about Tiberius!
225)  23:10 - Zoe
       I think these Romans are so confusing to me because they all use the same names, though you have helped me with the outline of that, the family first names part, I have a terrible time keeping them straight
226)  23:11 - Torrey
       (What a colorful film we'd have, huh, if someone made a movie of all this? I can just envision Tiberius and Vipsania, Tiberius vs. Agrippina, the Sejanus intrigues. It could be an exceptional movie. I wonder why it hasn't been done)
227)  23:12 - Zoe
       yes, it would play well on the screen - plenty of blood for today's audiences
228)  23:14 - Morgana Flavius
       The part about the Pretorian guard choosing the Emperor is really interesting, because they usually chose a successor within the family of the recently "deceased" emperor. But they only tolerated these successors as long as they kept the guards happy with good wages in their pockets. Or, if a crazy guy like Caligula got on their nerves... However, the first emperor the Pretorians actually chose, Claudius, was NOT a military man. He had never commanded any troop before being made Emperor by the guards. But he was the only grown up member of the Julian/Claudian family at that point.
229)  23:14 - Torrey
       I'm having trouble keeping people straight too Zoe. Here's a site I bookmarked - the family tree. Here... http://www.historyinfilm.com/claudius/famtree2.htm
230)  23:15 - Zoe
       interesting that they chose from with in the family of the deceased. I'm surprised they didn't go further afield. keeping the semblance of propriety perhaps this way
231)  23:16 - Morgana Flavius
       To keep the family tree in mind is very important. Particularly if you read a book like "I Claudius", by R.Graves. BTW, I Claudius was a movie AND it is primarily about all these family intrigues.
232)  23:16 - Torrey
       How was Caligula proclaimed Emperor after Tiberius, Morgana? Did he easily and immediately take power because he was assumed to be Tiberius' heir?
233)  23:17 - Torrey
       Do you recommend the movie, I Claudius, Morgana? I've never seen it. Will have to check it out. It may be easier than reading the novel <-:
234)  23:17 - Zoe
       I have some trees in the back of books here but they still have multiple Neros, Agripinas, Claudius's. And they don't number them like the French Louis and the Brit Charles and Henrys which would have helped
235)  23:18 - Morgana Flavius
       Further on, the Pretorians chose outside the deceased family. I think that this was the case with the first non Julian/Claudian emperor although I cannot remember who he was. Later on, in the 3rd century AD, the Emperors were purely military leaders. Until we got to the "barrack" emperors: rude military commanders who were successful in getting the soldiers' sympathy and got elected emperor by the majority of the legions. There were times when more than one Emperor ruled at the same time, each one chosen by one military faction. A mess!
236)  23:19 - Torrey
       (these roman families and names are almost as bad as the Russians. I'm recalling Dostoevsky and Tolstoy and reding Zhivago. Yikes!)
237)  23:21 - Morgana Flavius
       I didn't see I Claudius, the movie. But from the reviews I've read in AS and the Vines, it just sucked. But the book is good. Gives us a good view of how the family intrigues built up the empire... Although, after reading Tacitus, I realized that Graves drew his story basically upon Tacitus. No mercy for Tiberius... but worse than Tiberius, in Graves' book was... Livia!
238)  23:21 - Zoe
       oh yes, war and peace was fun for names
239)  23:22 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I read War & Peace. Gotta keep a notebook at hand to keep track of who's who. Just like reading about the Roman empire rulers. LOL!
241)  23:24 - Torrey
       Of course keeping track of people's identities at A.S. wasn't always easy either, especially when you think that you have two different online friends named Mara and Zoe!
242)  23:24 - Zoe
       the Russians keep making - I think they called it - diminuatives out of everyone's name. They stuck all the different endings on to the smae person's name - a different on on every page - really nuts! The Romans are better than that!
243)  23:25 - Zoe
       Mara froze to death in a snowstorm in Tara.
244)  23:25 - Torrey
       Ohh poor Mara. Why didn't you like her anyway? As sister's go, she seemed ok to me!
245)  23:25 - Zoe
       I love Zhivago. and even the movie!
      23:26 - Torrey     (Re: 23:25 - Zoe 'I love Zhivago. and even the movie!...')
       Me too (Zhivago fan, big movie of my teenage years!)
246)  23:26 - Morgana Flavius
       About Caligula, Torrey: After the death of T's son, Drusus, Tiberius finally chose Caligula, one of Agrippina's sons, as his successor. Caligular was young and Tiberius thought he could "make the boy's mind" according to his will. Tib made Caligula promise that he (Caligula) would take Gemellus as his co-ruler (a novelty). Of course Caligula said yes. But no longer after T's death, Gemellus conveniently died too and Caligula was the sole emperor. In the beginning, Caligula was a good emperor. He just developed crazy trends (paranoid or some other kind of mental disorder) in his late days as Emperor. He died young: 28, after ruling for only 3 or 4 years.
247)  23:26 - Torrey
       Morgana, you didn't have an alternate AS identity, did you? Or have you fooled all of us? (don't tell me you're Strabo please!)
248)  23:27 - Zoe
       I don't know. I just got to liking being Zoe I guess. Poor Mara was tongue tied for months when she moved into AS and I shouldn't have been up in Tara with the hard core RPers either
249)  23:27 - Zoe
       Strabo! LOL!
250)  23:28 - Torrey
       (now here I am trying to take a silliness break and Morgana's keeping me serious - actually Morgana I'm quite impressed with how much you know about these political successions. I know nothing about the times post Tiberius....)
251)  23:28 - Morgana Flavius
       LOL! No, I never had another identity in AS.
252)  23:29 - Zoe
       one wonders about the genetics of all the close marrying of the Julio-Claudians. Agrippa posthumus wasn't quite right, was he? And Caligula and there were some more weren't there?
253)  23:29 - Torrey
       (and do tell us, Morgana, if there are any emperors after Tiberius who have truly redeeming qualities. I admit to not being too interested in them because I don't have the impression that they're positive figures.....but there probably are one or two that made significant contributions)
254)  23:30 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I sort of got fascinated about these emperors. I Claudius book gave me a good insight about Imperial times, and the Roman series by McCullough, a good insight about the late Republican times. I think that reading fiction helps me to memorize better the tricky who's who stuff.
255)  23:30 - Zoe
       Which leads me back to the question I posed months ago - Why didn't the Ptolemies have this problem? Brothers and sisters were hooked up there.
      23:34 - Torrey     (Re: 23:30 - Zoe 'Which leads me back to the question I posed months...')
       Zoe, I think there were some problems in Egyptian dynasties due to inbreeding.....but though brothers and sisters intermarried, they didn't always bear each other's children. Cleopatra's children for example were not from her marriage to her brother.
256)  23:31 - Torrey
       Agrippa Posthumus was very twisted, violent,  pathological. Julia was pregnant with him when Agrippa died....and then she was forced to marry Tiberius even before giving birth. The Caesar's Daughter novel portrays how depressed she was and how hard both experiences were for her. If this were true, it  could explain some of the problems with Agrippa Posthumus. Children born after the mother is in deep grief or depression often have severe emotional problems.
257)  23:32 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, yes, Torrey. There were good Emperors too, but only outside the Julian/Claudian families. But I have not got to them yet. I stopped in Nero, but will keep on going. :-)
258)  23:32 - Morgana Flavius
       Oh, but Zoe! The Ptolomies had problems too! Or do you think that Cleopatra's father, the Flute Player, was totally sane?
259)  23:33 - Zoe
       Auletes was just a drunk. Or at least that's what I got
260)  23:34 - Morgana Flavius
       Hum... as far as I know, Julia and Tiberius got married one year after Agrippa's death. Augustus made sure, this time, that the traditional "mourning year" had elapsed before marrying Julia again.
      23:36 - Torrey     (Re: 23:34 - Morgana Flavius 'Hum... as far as I know, Julia and Tiberius got...')
       You could be right, Morgana, as Caesar's Daughter was fiction not nonfiction. In it, Augustus shortened Julia's mourning and made her marry Tiberius before the year was out. But that was a novel.....
261)  23:34 - Zoe
       But I don't recall running into a lot of Egyptians being described as psychotics and the Romans seem to run to that
262)  23:35 - Torrey
       (Speaking of Cleopatra my own  out of control book buying also led me to purchase the new Cleopatra novel recently....When we were Gods, by Colin Falconer. It's getting  favorable reviews. It will be interesting to compare it to Memoirs when I ever get around to reading it!)
263)  23:36 - Zoe
       Yes, Morgana, that was a descrepancy in the Ceasar's Daughter book. That one had the marriage taking place almost immediately, way before the conventional mourning period was over
264)  23:37 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, that's right. According to the official records, Auletes was not a mentally ill person, but only a person who liked to drink and preferred to play rather than rule. Besides, in Egypt, no one dared to say "ah" about the Pharaos behavior. All they did was right, no matter how cruel.
265)  23:38 - Torrey
       Also Morgana, if Zoe or I can help you get books via Amazon or B&N without paying as high shipping costs as they charge directly let us know. We could perhaps work out a way to send you several books surface rate.....you'd just have to wait awhile for them)
266)  23:38 - Zoe
       oh stop it Torrey!! You're forcing me to click on Amazon....resisting, resisting... *G*
267)  23:38 - Morgana Flavius
       And the Ptolemies kept killing each other (among sibllings) and the strongest/smartest one kept the throne.
268)  23:39 - Morgana Flavius
       Thank you for the offer, Torrey! I may consider it. :-)
269)  23:39 - Torrey
       (One thing I do as an amazon.com associate is that I make a page of the books I want to buy with my associate code on each book title, and then I make 10% or more on each book as a result of buying it under my associate name. you might want to become an associate!)
270)  23:39 - Zoe
       It seems that rulers in most countries throughour history kept killing each other. Perks.
      23:42 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 23:39 - Zoe 'It seems that rulers in most countries throughour history kept...')
       Yes, Zoe. I have the same feeling. Perks! :-)
271)  23:40 - Zoe
       How can you be making money if you're spending it?
      23:42 - Torrey     (Re: 23:40 - Zoe 'How can you be making money if you're spending it?...')
       (Well Zoe, buying books is my primary extravagance. But I do manage to limit myself to about $100 a month on personal boook purchases. That's still twice as fast as I can read them though) When you're an amazon.com associate, Zoe, you earn 10-15% on any book bought from your own link to the amazon.com site, whether you click on it or anyone else does. Amazon.com sends you a check every 3 months. I earn about $120 every 3 months that way
272)  23:40 - Morgana Flavius
       The last book I ordered from Amazon.com was in November. It arrived two weeks ago (the second volume of McCullough series, "The Grass Crown"). Have not started reading it though.
274)  23:41 - Zoe
       I think I have the 1st McCullough Rome one - still waiting for my Christmas presents for the rest
275)  23:44 - Zoe
       I try to take a break in the slow months (Jan and Feb and Mar) from book buying. Difficult though, especially when you're dangling new and interesting ones at me (I can wait for April. Spring is coming.)
277)  23:44 - Morgana Flavius
       And I have to tell you one thing about reading books: I enjoy reading books in my own native language too! (LOL) I just read a wonderful book by the Portuguese Nobel prize winner, Saramago. One of the best books I ever read. But I find it hard to believe that a book like that will make any sense in another language.
278)  23:44 - Zoe
       oh, neat! how doe's one get to be an associate?
279)  23:45 - Torrey
       And yes, Morgana, you're impressive that you read so many heavy duty books in English as it is, when it's NOT your native language.
280)  23:45 - Torrey
       (Zoe I'll email you information and Morgana too if she's interested. There's a link to sign up for being an associate on the amazon.com main page)
281)  23:46 - Zoe
       If it took you from Nov to now to get what you ordered I bet we could get books to you a lot quicker
282)  23:48 - Morgana Flavius
       Aparently, being a foreigner will make it very difficult for me to receive any check from Amazon.com. Even paypall is making it hard for us too. Recently, I got an e-mail from Paypal saying that they could not credit my account until at least April, when they hope they will have solved a problem with Mastercard... shesh! Adieu AncientVines payments for my page views! (Don't worry, I don't get so many page views, anyway.)
283)  23:48 - Torrey
       Unfortunately though the US postal service just abolished international book rate. It's awful. When I sell books internationally at Ebay now I have to send them priority airmail because there's no other alternative except ships.
284)  23:48 - Zoe
       Perhaps Morgana your Saramago would make sense in another language if the reader had the cultural background to appreciate it
285)  23:48 - Torrey
       Anyway, I've distracted us all from Tiberius. Any more either of you want to bring up?
286)  23:49 - Zoe
       I have a friend here who regularly ships things to her family in Germany, she says she has ways. I don't know them but I'm sure whatever her system would work for Brazil also
287)  23:49 - Torrey
       (Morgana, you may have a delay with PayPal but at least it could be a viable way for you to deal with money internationally ....especially once they solve their problem)
288)  23:50 - Morgana Flavius
       The cultural background is a must, yes, Zoe. But besides that, the beauty in Saramago's books lies heavily in his extremely original use of the Portuguese language. I guess that only someone who can speak Portuguese can appreciate that...
289)  23:50 - Torrey
       (I think that the solution for Morgana's book buying problems is for her to take a trip to Boston and spend several days with me checking out the 20 different bookstores in Cambridge and having a book orgy)
290)  23:51 - Zoe
       It's also pretty rude of the AV Paypal system to consider you a foreigner, Morgana, when so many of the participants aren't US. Just who do we think we are anyway? LOL!
291)  23:51 - Morgana Flavius
       You are absolutely right, Torrey! LOL! THAT would solve a LOT of problems, not only the book problem. LOL!
292)  23:52 - Zoe
       she'd still have to get them back to Brazil. She'd weight down the airplane. Maybe you can rent a boat, Morgana!
293)  23:52 - Torrey
       I think all three of us should meet here in the bookstores of Cambridge and then go out for some nights on the town!
294)  23:52 - Morgana Flavius
       Zoe, I don't think that PayPal guys have any prejudice against foreigners... they only did not find a way to ship money abroad without paying taxes... :-)
295)  23:53 - Zoe
       what fun! I love bookstores and nights out.
299)  23:54 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, ladies. I too would love to meet at a bookstore and then go out at night with you!

SILLINESS BREAK

334)  00:08 - Zoe
       another line from the Massie I saved - Sejanus: jokingly(?) recommends that Tiberius 'stop Agrippina's mouth" by sticking her on one of the many islands reserved for female members of the family
335)  00:09 - Torrey
       Dante, Ovid, Julia...... Reminds me of how Australia was populated....all the criminals exiled there. Get rid of them by sending them to islands far away....
338)  00:10 - Morgana Flavius
       Brazil was also a place of exile for Portuguese criminals in the early colony days.
      00:11 - Torrey     (Re: 00:10 - Morgana Flavius 'Brazil was also a place of exile for Portuguese criminals...')
       Really, Morgana? Brazil too!
339)  00:10 - Zoe
       page 162
340)  00:10 - Torrey
       Come to think of it, I can't imagine Agrippina and Livia getting along, can you?
342)  00:11 - Zoe
       and didn't a lot of Germans go there after WWII? Of course the US is full of descendants of who knows what sorts of criminals
343)  00:11 - Torrey
       Well, look, I'm also open to meeting on Capri if Cambridge isn't appealing enough <-:
      00:13 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 00:11 - Torrey 'Well, look, I'm also open to meeting on Capri if...')
       LOL, Torrey!
344)  00:12 - Morgana Flavius
       I think Livia and Agrippina were fierce enemies. Just like Livia and Agrippina's mother, Julia, had been too.
345)  00:13 - Zoe
       Livia and Agrippina would have never gotten along - both of them were too controlling
347)  00:14 - Morgana Flavius
       What do you think, Zoe? About Torrey's suggestion of a meeting in Capri?
348)  00:14 - Zoe
       uh, Zoe doesn't fly.
349)  00:15 - Torrey
       Zoe flies in her mind.......Well we always take a boat over to Europe. (Hell, in fantasy anything is possible)
350)  00:15 - Morgana Flavius
       We could all go by ship! Classica B&B, in Capri. What do you think?
351)  00:15 - Zoe
       books and bodies. hmmm. Maybe I can get a presrciption and get on a plane

OMISSIONS

371)  00:29 - Morgana Flavius
       Now, let me tell you something, ladies: I've been sitting here for the past 4 hours with you. I am not feeling anything in my back. Isn't it amazing?! Of course, I prefer not to think about tomorrow... But this is just to let you know how addicted I am to our chats.
372)  00:30 - Torrey
        Ah, how wonderful Morgana, that these chats cure your back pain! Maybe your back tells you what's good for you and what isn't on the computer.
      00:31 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 00:30 - Torrey ' Ah, how wonderful Morgana, that these chats cure your...')
       I guess so, Torrey, yes!
373)  00:31 - Torrey
       Maybe we're the Three Sisters. Hmm. Not the Furies, not the Fates. We'll have to come up with a name.
374)  00:31 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, a name for us!
375)  00:32 - Morgana Flavius
       The Three Graces?
376)  00:32 - Torrey
       The B&B sisters. Books and bodies.
377)  00:33 - Morgana Flavius
       Or Books & Buddies?
378)  00:34 - Zoe
       the third Triumvirate
379)  00:34 - Morgana Flavius
       yeah... hard to imagine us dancing like the Graces beside Venus in Boticcelli's "The Spring" painting...
381)  00:35 - Zoe
       there are lots of "three" groups - we'll have to go fishing I think
382)  00:36 - Torrey
       Morgana Zoe Torrey. MZT MTZ TMZ TZM Many tipsy zealots. Many zany talkers. (I must be losing it!)
384)  00:36 - Zoe
       I had to talk to the husband, he was out tonight and just came in.
385)  00:37 - Zoe
       tipsy zealots!?LOL!
386)  00:37 - Morgana Flavius
       Fair enough, Zoe.
387)  00:37 - Torrey
       Probably time to wind down. It must be 2:30 in Morgana's land.
388)  00:38 - Torrey
       By the way Morgana, time change is April 1 this year. Two days after D-Day (AS Demise day)
389)  00:38 - Zoe
       my, I hadn't even been watching the time. I must like you guys or something :)
390)  00:38 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, past 2 a.m. But then again, tomorrow's Sunday and I don't have to wake up before noon! Wheew!!!!
391)  00:39 - Torrey
       Zoe and I will probably be snowed in Sunday and Monday.
392)  00:39 - Morgana Flavius
       I think I'd like to be snowed for a change...
394)  00:40 - Zoe
       the horrible weather channel is now giving us a blizzard here with 1-2 ft of snow. Virginia will be at an absolute standstill.
395)  00:40 - Torrey
       Are you aware that you're making a pun - saying you'd like to be snowed, Morgana? (American slang)
397)  00:41 - Morgana Flavius
       But Torrey! Think about the snowmen you can make!!!
399)  00:41 - Torrey
       Morgana, I think Zoe and I are ready to join you on Capri tomorrow.
400)  00:41 - Zoe
       yes, Morgana, I thought from your earlier posts, you were already snowed...
401)  00:42 - Morgana Flavius
       (Didn't know about the slang, nor the pun. But now I know. LOL)
403)  00:43 - Morgana Flavius
       The weather never changes here: it's always hot & humid. Well... it does change: sometime it is more hot than humid... and sometimes it is more humid than hot! What a thrill!
404)  00:43 - Zoe
       I went out for my weekly errand runing today and when the traffic lights changed no one could go anywhere because of all the cars stopped for the next lights. Strange. People in grocery stores buying for Armageddon.
405)  00:44 - Torrey
       (Actually I'm not sure how to define it, Morgana, but I think "getting snowed" in slang means something like being overcome, getting swept away by something or someone)
413)  00:48 - Morgana Flavius
       Anyhow, ladies, although I feel terrific, I must think about tomorrow... How about decide what's our next step?
      00:52 - Torrey     (Re: 00:48 - Morgana Flavius 'Anyhow, ladies, although I feel terrific, I must think about...')
       Next step......Chat on the Firebrand Sunday March 18?
416)  00:51 - Torrey
       (WOWWW! I just opened another window to search for THREE and GREEK MYTHOLOGY and all the links were for Greek mythology Link. So I clicked on one of them and it's BACK!!!!!!!!! At least at this address http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/ It was offline for 3 months
420)  00:52 - Morgana Flavius
       Greek Mythology is back?! We must drink to that!!!!
421)  00:52 - Zoe
       oh Torrey, I'm so glad to know that the maicar site is back up. I missed it before Christmas and I've needed it so many times lately!
422)  00:53 - Torrey
       (Hell I'm about ready to save every single page of the Greek mythology link in case it disappears again)
423)  00:53 - Zoe
       Sunday 18th for Troy is fine for me
425)  00:54 - Morgana Flavius
       Ok, Sunday 18th for Firebrand. Same time, 8:30pm?
426)  00:55 - Zoe
       8:30 is good
427)  00:55 - Torrey
       I just noticed that Greek Mythology link now sells the whole siteon cdrom)......
428)  00:55 - Torrey
       Greek mythology link cdrom
http://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/GMLCD.html
430)  00:56 - Morgana Flavius
       8:30pm EST is fine for me. I may not be home earlier.
432)  00:57 - Morgana Flavius
       We do like this chatroom, don't we?
433)  00:57 - Torrey
       Ok Sunday 8:30 on Firebrand. I'll announce it Ancient Sites and at The Readers Place.....I also just established us a board at TRP in Classics for announcing our chats.
434)  00:57 - Zoe
       it says the search engine won't work on the CDROM
436)  00:58 - Torrey
       Yes I like this chatroom. It's quite stable. Will see when we get out what the transcript looks like LOL!
441)  01:02 - Torrey
       Now, it's time for Zoe to have the last word, Morgana so you and I have to leave first.... <-:
442)  01:02 - Zoe
       traditions...!
443)  01:03 - Zoe
       good night ladies, I have enjoyed this tremendously, as usual
444)  01:03 - Morgana Flavius
       Actually, I'm not so worried... I think I will be ok with what has been "disclosed" so far. ;-)
445)  01:04 - Morgana Flavius
       Good night Zoe, Torrey. I wish you a good snow tomorrow! Bye!
446)  01:04 - Zoe
       did either of you notice that if you click on the participants button we are listed as "chatterers"?
447)  01:05 - Zoe
       there is no "good snow"
      01:07 - Morgana Flavius     (Re: 01:05 - Zoe 'there is no 'good snow'...')
       Well, read it "good snowman"... *wink*
448)  01:05 - Morgana Flavius
       Yes, I saw that Zoe.
449)  01:05 - Morgana Flavius
       I wonder if my reputation is danger by being called that... any American slang I don't know?
450)  01:06 - Zoe
       hee hee you'll just have to lay low for awhile, Morgana!
451)  01:07 - Zoe
       hmmmm...
452)  01:08 - Morgana Flavius
       Alright, try to keep warm with the Firebrand! (Now I REALLY must go)
453)  01:08 - Morgana Flavius
       *poof!*
454)  01:09 - Zoe
       All's well that ends well.



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