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CHAT FIVE: Odyssey, Books 17-20 continued
Back to beginning of chat five
13:11 Hetaira Lysias enters...
13:11 Theseus
Artistides: Or, forgive me for going out on a Freudian limb, maybe Penelope's
subconscious is betraying the idea that she might like all the attention the birds have
been giving her.
13:12 Torrey
Philemon: Welcome, Myrhhine...Well, it's puzzling. My first impression of the dream is
that the geese are something she treasures, and that the eagle is the "bad guy".
The interpretation given then reverses it
13:12 Hetaira
Lysias: Hey there folks. *groggy smile*
13:12 maia
Nestor: Hetaira!
13:12 Athenia
Glaucon: Welcome to the world of light, Hetaira. <g>
13:12 maia
Nestor: BTW, gang, Gorgo sends her regrets.
13:12 Torrey
Philemon: Heh heh Maia might dispute that, Theseus! (the old
Is-Penelope-at-all-at-fault issue)
13:12 Theseus
Artistides: Hetaira!!!
13:13 Aurora
Inca: Theseus - good point. Who isn't flattered by attention a little bit, even if
unwanted, if it isn't TOO annoying.
13:13 Hetaira
Lysias: Hey Athenia, Theseus, maia and anyone else I can't focus properly on at the
moment. :)
13:13 Athenia
Glaucon: Maybe, Torrey, she doesn't "enjoy" watching the geese as much as
she finds them amusing.
13:13 maia
Nestor: Now come on, Torrey, I never said she was without fault! She'd be perfect
then, and perfection is boring.
13:13 Theseus
Artistides: Now, how am I going to keep the goofy grin off my face?
13:13 maia
Nestor: Hetaira stayed up way too late last night partying with me. My fault.
13:13 Torrey
Philemon: I'm partly teasing you, Maia!
13:13 Hetaira
Lysias: Why would that be Freudian Theseus? *curious look*
13:14 Theseus
Artistides: Whoa, the dream interp. thing was just an idle thought!
13:14 maia
Nestor: Just partly, Torrey? *grin*
13:15 Hetaira
Lysias: Dream interpretation by way of Freud is pretty limited, he always took it back
to the basics; penis-envy, id and unresolved childhood issues.
13:16 Theseus
Artistides: Ah, then I am mistaken... The subconscious is hardly my forte.
13:16 Torrey
Philemon: Fagles: I keep 20 geese in the house, from the water trough/ they come and
peck their wheat - I love to watchm them. But down from a mountain swooped this great
hook-beaked eagle.
13:16 Hetaira
Lysias: Now a Jungian interpretation of the dream might uncover some interesting
archetypes. Birds in particular could be seen as freedom, flight from responsibility, so
on. :)
13:16 maia
Nestor: And the conscious, Theseus?
13:16 Theseus
Artistides: And Freud is even further down there on my list of specialties.
13:17 Theseus
Artistides: I'm certainly better with the conscious.
13:17 Hetaira
Lysias: I think he might have even said birds were higher thought processes.
*musing*
13:18 Torrey
Philemon: The eagle is so often an omen....divine intervention.
13:18 Athenia
Glaucon: And geese are certainly earthy birds, commonplace, where eagles were more
lofty, more "of the Gods."
13:18 maia
Nestor: As a rule, I always defer to oracles and hetairae.
13:19 Aurora
Inca: Domesticity vs. the Hunter. The stay-at-home suitors defeated by the homecoming
warrior?
13:19 Torrey
Philemon: I get hung up on the part about "she loved to watch" the geese (
I'm a dream therapist and lead dream interpretation groups in real life, so I can
get carried away with this)
13:19 Hetaira
Lysias: Divine intervention in that time, the higher mind in this time? There
was no ego, super-ego or anima/animus in Homer's day. *grin*
13:19 Athenia
Glaucon: Hetairae first - they know everything.
13:19 Torrey
Philemon: Maia, that's a great "signature line"!
13:20 Athenia
Glaucon: But that might be Fagles's words, not Penelope's. Anyone else got a different
translation?
13:20 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah actually, I just saw Aurora's comment, I like that.
13:21 maia
Nestor: And that's a good point, Hetaira...there were omens in Homer's time, but
certainly no consciousness of the subconscious.
13:21 Torrey
Philemon: Hetaira, I'd think it was all there, they just called it by another name.
Hubris for one..
13:21 Hetaira
Lysias: I have Fitzgerald's around here *searching*
13:22 Aurora
Inca: What book is the "loved to watch" in? I haven't read that far....
13:22 Theseus
Artistides: I'm thinking 19.
13:23 Torrey
Philemon: There's some theory isn't there Maia about the development of the human
brain since Homer's time. Like the right brain and left brain were configured
differently...and what was in the "unconscious" was once projected onto
gods/omens and actually heard as "voices". Forget the source, there's some book
on the subject...
13:23 Hetaira
Lysias: So Hubris in that day an age translates to what in common day? Not being true
to your higher mind?
13:23 Torrey
Philemon: In Fagles, it's 19:606...
13:24 Athenia
Glaucon: That's pretty much the way it is in most aboriginal cultures. Folks who
"see" or "hear" things are touched by the gods.
13:24 maia
Nestor: Hubris is just being insolent towards the gods. Well, Torrey, I don't ascribe
to that theory...human evolution works far more slowly than that. It's just cultural
differences...
13:24 maia
Nestor: Are you thinking of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, Torrey?
13:24 Aurora
Inca: OK. Lawrence says "and I love wtaching them"
13:25 Torrey
Philemon: I brought up hubris in reference the comment about no conception of EGO or
the unconscious...
13:25 Athenia
Glaucon: My ancient translation says that the geese "gladden her eyes."
13:25 Aurora
Inca: I've read that, too, Torrey. Though I don't remember where. And those that still
hear them as voices, we treat with medication.
13:25 Torrey
Philemon: That may be the source, Maia.
13:25 maia
Nestor: In simpler times, things were simpler.
13:26 Theseus
Artistides: I agree with Maia on the cultural vs. evolution aspect. (But
apparently, I have nothing new to add.)
13:26 Athenia
Glaucon: Its by S.O. Andrew from the 1953 Everyman's library. My mom or dad stole it
from the public library. ;-)
13:26 maia
Nestor: Like Agamemnon, when he is trying, in the Iliad to say why he acted in such a
way, just shrugs his shoulders and says ATE....
13:27 maia
Nestor: They had a very simple heroic code, and that is how they lived. None of this,
my father left me, my mother was a tramp....they didn't THINK in those terms.
13:27 Hetaira
Lysias: Yes, I know, and I was asking for clarification Torrey, you threw hubris out
there, quantify it for me in present day psychology so that I know I'm getting the message
correctly.
13:27 Hetaira
Lysias: Please. :)
13:28 Torrey
Philemon: My reference to hubris was just an aside. Just musing on different
conceptions of ego, in different ways, at different times...
13:29 Hetaira
Lysias: Okay, just checking. I thought you had something specific in mind.
13:29 Theseus
Artistides: I thought hubris was overweaning arrogance, in particular in relation to a
mortal and the gods and/or fate.
13:30 maia
Nestor: Yes, just real insolence. Believing in yourself to the exclusion of the
gods.
13:30 Theseus
Artistides: Is it time for another question?
13:30 Hetaira
Lysias: I think we established that Theseus, I was actually thinking about how hubris
works in post depth-psychology minds. :)
13:30 Hetaira
Lysias: i.e. would hubris be someone with control issues? *grin*
13:31 Athenia
Glaucon: We'd probably call it sociopathy.
13:31 Torrey
Philemon: Anyone else want to put out a question? I always have a reservoir of them,
but let's see what you all have.
13:31 Theseus
Artistides: "post depth-psychology minds"?
13:31 Hetaira
Lysias: Meglomania Athenia?
13:31 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah Theseus...post Freud/Jung.
13:31 Theseus
Artistides: Oh, I get it. Never mind.
13:32 Athenia
Glaucon: No, because that allows for other people, even if only as tools.
sociopathy is about "me."
13:32 Theseus
Artistides: I seem to be somewhat slow today.
13:33 Hetaira
Lysias: I'm with ya Theseus. *tired smile*
13:33 Theseus
Artistides: (Let me know when it's nap time.) *grin*
13:34 Athenia
Glaucon: Nap time! Followed by milk and cookies for the whole class!
13:34 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh, don't go there Theseus. *grin*
13:34 Theseus
Artistides: I think there are people (absolutely not me!) who would say our entire
modern culture suffers from hubris.
13:35 Athenia Glaucon enters...
13:35 Torrey
Philemon: You all are reaffirming my theory that 1 1/2 hours into an
"educational" chat people need a breather and want to regress!
13:35 Athenia
Glaucon: Not all of us, but there are quite a few who do.
13:35 Theseus
Artistides: Aw, and that's my favorite place, too! *faux pout*
13:35 Hetaira
Lysias: Nietsche (sp?) is to blame Theseus; God Is Dead. ;)
13:36 maia
Nestor: I have more of an observation than a question; it is clear to me that out of
all the characters Homer did, he truly loved Odysseus the most. Seemed enthralled with the
character.
13:36 Torrey
Philemon: Interesting point, Theseus.
13:36 Athenia
Glaucon: No, it was the age of "reason" that did it.
13:36 Hetaira
Lysias: Forgot a "z" somewhere along the line. *scratching head*
13:36 Theseus
Artistides: Yeah, I can usually take about two hours of chat like this max.
13:37 Torrey
Philemon: Why do you say that, Maia? Because he presents Odysseus in such a positive
light?
13:37 Aurora
Inca: I think we regressed earlier with the "ways of describing entering
manhood" thing.
13:37 Athenia
Glaucon: I don't think he does present O. in a positive light, but certainly a more
real light.
13:38 Athenia
Glaucon: Oh, dear - I'm glad I missed that part, Aurora. :-)
13:38 Theseus
Artistides: Maybe we just need to run around the playground.
13:38 maia
Nestor: Well as a writer, you know you can fall in love with your character. He made
Odysseus the most rounded of all his, imo. A modern, thinking on his feet human...it was
clear he admired him enormously.
13:38 Hetaira
Lysias: O seems very human to me, meaty and substantial, like Homer based him on
someone he knew.
13:38 Aurora
Inca: *ring* RECESS!!!!
13:38 Aurora
Inca: joke
13:39 Hetaira
Lysias: I have dibs on the swings!
13:39 Theseus
Artistides: I'm also fascinated by the utter lack of moral stigma attached to lying
throughout this book.
13:39 maia
Nestor: Someone he knew, or someone he had learned to love; Homer was using a
tradition that was already there, right?
13:40 maia
Nestor: Ah Theseus...again, that's because a hero survived. A hero did what he could
to effect the survival. He was brave. Lying isn't seen by them as cowardly.
13:40 Torrey
Philemon: Right, Theseus. There's even one point at which Odysseus says he hates men
who lie...they're the lowest of the low, or something like that.
13:40 Athenia
Glaucon: I get the seesaw!
13:40 Hetaira
Lysias: This is true maia.
13:41 Athenia
Glaucon: Maia speaks from the same perspective as Homer - she also loves O. :-)
13:41 Theseus
Artistides: (I always go for the monkey bars, myself. But if Hetaira needs a
push or a dozen, I'm happy to offer my services.)
13:41 Hetaira
Lysias: I would think truth/falsehoods were very much tied in with honor in that time,
so they were more open to interpretation....one lie is not as bad as another type o' thing
13:42 Torrey
Philemon: Book 14: 184, Odysseus says, "I hate that man who like the very Gates
of Death who/ground down by poverty stoops to peddling lies...
13:42 Hetaira
Lysias: I'm so there Theseus, push away. :)
13:42 Theseus
Artistides: I don't think the dishonesty is mysterious, but the way Homer revels in it
at times is, for me, fascinating.
13:42 Torrey
Philemon: Now folks, it's my avatar who's sitting on a swing! (-:
13:43 maia
Nestor: Echoing what Achilles said? But Achilles meant it...
13:43 maia
Nestor: Yes, Athenia...you've nailed me right! I do love him...
13:44 Athenia
Glaucon: You know, H., of the significance of the swing, don't you?
13:44 Torrey
Philemon: Odysseus however isn't stoopingto peddling lies. He's rising to the
occasion, supposedly for a higher purpose (like mass murder. Did you read the contemporary
news story interpretationof Odysseus as a mass murderer?)
13:44 Theseus
Artistides: (I can do the hopping from one to the other, pushing both of you.
Hmmm, that's... oh, never mind!)
13:44 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, but I got dibs on the swings. *sweet smile* And the Enforcer is here to
police the playground.
13:44 maia
Nestor: There's a bit in the Iliad when O is facing a force bearing down on him, and
he thinks it through; should I stay and be slaughtered? Or run to fight for my cause
another day? NO ONE else in Homer ever thinks in those terms...his mind is a wondrous
thing.
13:45 Athenia
Glaucon: Is it mass murder to defend your home from a threat. Torrey, you come home
and a gang has taken it over. ASre you going to ask them nicely to leave? Or go in with
Swat and PBI?
13:45 Athenia
Glaucon: Uh, FBI, not PBI
13:45 Hetaira
Lysias: I could see that sort of interpretation for Achilles a lot faster than
Odysseus. *bemused look*
13:45 maia
Nestor: Odysseus has never done well in later times, Torrey. He's too different.
13:46 Torrey
Philemon: Well, Athenia, Odysseus today would have gone to jail for what he did! A
different context.
13:46 maia
Nestor: What those people don't realize is that he was COMPELLED to act as he did, in
re the suitors. They had committed a crime that has no modern equivalent. He was king, he
was host, he had been violated. Probably treason comes close...
13:46 Hetaira
Lysias: Or ended up in Waco. ;)
13:46 Theseus
Artistides: (You're not still wearing those heels are you, sweet Hetaira?)
13:46 maia
Nestor: And what he did was sanctioned, even mandated, by the gods.
13:47 Hetaira
Lysias: Not at the moment Theseus, don't want to tower over everyone in the
room.
13:48 maia
Nestor: Theseus, stop flirting!
13:48 Theseus
Artistides: I for one, am really looking forward to Suitorfest '98, as I think Hetaira
put it last week.
13:48 maia
Nestor: Good girl, H...you know I'm only tall in my own mind.
13:49 Theseus
Artistides: But, then, I'm the representative blood-thirsty male.
13:49 Hetaira
Lysias: Shoes are so complicated right now. *blink* There is nothing but coffee,
life and Waco. Uhhh, anyway.
13:50 Theseus
Artistides: I was just worried about catching one in the forehead while pushing this
swing.
13:50 Athenia
Glaucon: You did promise me you'd wear the boots that go with your secret intelligence
force hat...
13:50 Athenia
Glaucon: Right - we were talking about Odysseus.
13:50 Hetaira
Lysias: Well boots are easier! No straps.
13:51 Athenia
Glaucon: Is there no crime that's the same? I think having your house invaded and
you're family held captive is pretty much a timeless crime.
13:51 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, what Athenia said. I'm lurking and caffienating. Is that a word?
13:51 Torrey
Philemon: Next subject, anybody?
13:51 maia
Nestor: If it isn't, it should be, H.
13:52 maia
Nestor: Are we through calling O a mass murderer yet?
13:52 Hetaira
Lysias: I am, but I was calling Achilles a mass murderer, I think.
13:52 Athenia
Glaucon: I'll back you up M. Last week we called Athena manipulating and it got my
hackles up. ;-)
13:52 Theseus
Artistides: Oh, I don't think of O as a mass murderer! I think he's the wrath of
the gods embodied! He's the man!
13:53 Hetaira
Lysias: Nooo, that's Aphrodite, Athena is a quasi-trickster. Duh. ;)
13:53 Aurora
Inca: Now there's a title for a modern, updated version "Odysseus, da Man"
13:53 Athenia
Glaucon: Achilles isn't a mass mrdereder - he's a sports hero, a figure of great
skill. His "sport" happens to be war, in a world where life was cheaper than it
is now.
13:54 Hetaira
Lysias: Hey yeah Aurora, we can get Busta Rhymes to sing it. ;)
13:54 Athenia
Glaucon: Well said, H. Who says hetaira's are unintelligent. :-)
13:54 Hetaira
Lysias: Well now Athenia, you put me in my place. *big grin* I find that sooo
attractive.
13:54 diopan Nestor enters...
13:54 Hetaira
Lysias: Achilles BMOC
13:55 Theseus
Artistides: (Or maybe it's just that our sports stars are too pampered. *evil grin*)
13:55 Athenia
Glaucon: <slap you down> Stop it this instant!
13:55 Torrey
Philemon: Ok here's another question: Why does Athena inspire Penelope "to
display herself to her suitors, inflame them more?"
13:55 Athenia
Glaucon: That too, Theseus.
13:55 Athenia
Glaucon: Because she realizes that men think with their willies and will be easier to
manipulate.
13:56 maia
Nestor: She despises them, Torrey. Wants to torture them...wants them to think their
reach won't exceed their grasp before lowering the boom.
13:56 Hetaira
Lysias: Well now, I always thought Penelope had a masterplan that included giving the
appearance of interest in the suitors?
13:56 maia
Nestor: good point, Athenia. I was refraining out of deference to Theseus here...
13:56 Theseus
Artistides: Hey! I resent that! It's true, but I resent it nevertheless.
13:56 Torrey
Philemon: My impression is it's part of increasing the drama, turning up the
heat...and maybe a sign of Penelope beginning to feel alive again.
13:57 Hetaira
Lysias: You represent that then, Theseus. :)
13:57 Athenia
Glaucon: Don't worry, maia, its my job to speak the truth.
13:58 Hetaira
Lysias: brb the coffee machine is whispering things to me...
13:58 Athenia
Glaucon: Torrey - ita also one of the few real "powers" women have over men
in this saga.
13:58 Theseus
Artistides: On the advice of my attorney, Mark Twain, I am going to sit still and
silent, at least for now.
13:58 Torrey
Philemon: Hetaira's hearing voices...
13:59 Athenia
Glaucon: Penelope is going to have to do whatever she can, and its damn littel, to
keep control of this situation.
13:59 Athenia
Glaucon: Hi diopan!!
13:59 Torrey
Philemon: Interesting point, Athenia. Penelope has the power to turn the men on, but
hasn't had the power to turn them off...
13:59 Hetaira
Lysias: noooo, I'm hearing the coffee pot, big difference.
14:00 Aurora
Inca: Must be the Caffeinius, the god of coffee
14:00 Athenia
Glaucon: But when they are turned on, they're more likely to turn on each other and
not her.
14:01 diopan
Nestor: hi everybody
14:01 Torrey
Philemon: Good line, Aurora. (We ought to write a parody on the Greek gods. That's a
good one)
14:01 Hetaira
Lysias: It's a very distinctive voice, promising me the speedy return of my brain
cells if I drink deep.
14:01 Athenia
Glaucon: Its been done - "All hail to the Goddes caffeina, she lives by the coffe
machina." She sits on my desk at work.
14:02 Hetaira
Lysias: Could be Caffenius...is he a Alto?
14:02 Aurora
Inca: Think of the gods we have now! What's important to our culture? Caffeinius would
be right up there near the top.
14:02 Torrey
Philemon: Personally, I honor Nicotinus
14:02 Aurora
Inca: One of the household gods!
14:02 Athenia
Glaucon: I also sugges the book "found Goddesses" by two women with stupid
names that i forget.
14:02 maia
Nestor: Is this what they call digressing? *smoking and sipping my coffee*
14:03 Athenia
Glaucon: I'm a big worshipper of Asphalta, who grants us parking places
14:03 Aurora
Inca: *sipping my coke - the carbonated version of the God*
14:03 Hetaira
Lysias: I would build a shrine to Caffeinius and Nicotinus, make offerings of sugar
and cream, deck out my villa with ashtrays. Woah, why I am running with this?
14:03 Athenia
Glaucon: We did need a recess, after all.
14:03 Theseus
Artistides: LOL!!! Athenia!
14:03 Athenia
Glaucon: Drinking tea...
14:03 maia
Nestor: I'm with you, H...except for the sugar part. We diabetics, you know...
14:04 Aurora
Inca: And we all are here paying devout attention to Compuerdorus.
14:04 Torrey
Philemon: Well my question about Athena turning up Penelope's heat buttons didn't
exactly inspire a switch back to serious conversation (-:
14:04 Aurora
Inca: meant Computerdorus.
14:04 Athenia
Glaucon: "Blessed Asphalta, fair of face, help us find a parking space."
14:05 Hetaira
Lysias: Serious conversation is highly overrated, I'm going to find a RAM chip to
sacrifice to Computerdorus...
14:05 Aurora
Inca: We need a name the gods of the 90's contest, don't you think?
14:05 Athenia
Glaucon: You guys obviously haven't found the "office Gods" series, have
you? Phonia, Faxus, Computerus, Caffeina...
14:05 Theseus
Artistides: (I'm reminded of the line from a Monty Python skit, "Do you have
Fifty Ways to Start a Fight, by an Irishman whose name I can't remember?"
14:06 Athenia
Glaucon: LOL
14:06 Aurora
Inca: Actually, as a high priestess of Machu Picchu, I routinesly enter the main AS
chat and sacrifice a cyber-llama to the cybergods before making any major system changes.
I have been seen doing this here, really.
14:06 Torrey
Philemon: Hey you all could write a really good 20th century parody of the gods...
14:06 Hetaira
Lysias: Yep Theseus, I know that one! *laughing*
14:06 Hetaira
Lysias: That sounds, erm, messy Aurora.
14:07 Aurora
Inca: It's only cyber-blood.
14:07 Athenia
Glaucon: As an oracle here, I tend to keep the sacrifices small...
14:07 Aurora
Inca: I move we name the new gods as part of our Calliope discussion board. (a good
way to generate interest).
14:07 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh well then, nevermind. *grin* I think I might sacrifice a mainframe
though, before major system changes.
14:08 Theseus
Artistides: That's a great line, Aurora! "It's only cyber blood."
14:08 Torrey
Philemon: Well, are we sacrificing "sacred bull" here?
14:08 Athenia Glaucon enters...
14:08 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh boy, Mithraism can't be far behind...
14:08 Aurora
Inca: I am well-rested, and therefore silly, today.
14:08 Athenia
Glaucon: I entered? Cool! <looking around for me>
14:09 Torrey
Philemon: Or should I say, should we continue with the BULL or STEER the conversation
back to the Odyssey?
14:09 Athenia
Glaucon: I am always silly...well rested or not.
14:09 maia
Nestor: You're so trickful, A, as my nephew says...
14:09 Hetaira
Lysias: Athenia like a good entrance, or two.
14:09 Aurora
Inca: Well,is anybody going to second the motion, or is it too silly?
14:09 Theseus
Artistides: What are followers of Mithraism called, by the way?
Mithradists?
14:10 Hetaira
Lysias: I'll second it!
14:10 Aurora
Inca: *groan*@Torrey
14:10 maia
Nestor: Steer away...
14:10 Athenia
Glaucon: I second! What were we talking about?
14:10 Aurora
Inca: Maybe when we get it together, we could submit it to the Glaux.
14:10 Torrey
Philemon: Aurora, I like the idea of doing more with this naming of the gods, but
maybe not on Calliope. It sort of fits mythquest.
14:10 Hetaira
Lysias: Sacrificing a mainframe to some bulls, duh.
14:10 maia
Nestor: Penelope torturing the suitors...and she got some great gifts out of it, too.
My kind of gal...
14:11 Aurora
Inca: I kind of thought of it as a creative outgrowth of our Odyssey stuff, but
whatever...
14:12 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh yeah, that too. *nod*
14:12 Torrey
Philemon: Ok another question. So why does Penelope decide finally to marry? Social
obligation...because it was Odysseus' wish (when T came of age), and for the sake of
Telemachus and the preservation of her house?
14:12 Torrey
Philemon: (Aurora, it's a good idea and could be a lot of fun!)
14:12 Theseus
Artistides: Okay, what does everyone think of the implication that the serving girls
who have "misbehaved" are going to be killed too?
14:13 maia
Nestor: I am so glad to have really met you, Aurora! You are too funny....
14:13 Torrey
Philemon: Their guilt is primarily in sleeping with the suitors, right?
14:13 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, what maia said, your keen Aurora!
14:14 Athenia
Glaucon: I think its harsh - but they may bear sons to these suitors, who will be
obliged to take revenge....its got to be done.
14:14 maia
Nestor: They were betraying their mistress, Torrey. Again, not just their
mistress...but their queen.
14:14 Aurora
Inca: Thank you. *bowing humbly*
14:14 Athenia
Glaucon: Yea Aurora!! Cha cha cha (japanese for Ra ra ra!)
14:15 Theseus
Artistides: I'm all for exterminating the suitors, but do they have to get rid of the
girls? Particularly the really *friendly* ones?
14:15 Hetaira
Lysias: Those wacky Japanese. Cha cha cha?
14:15 maia
Nestor: Are we gonna cha cha now? *looking about hopefully*
14:15 Athenia
Glaucon: One, two, cha cha cha...
14:15 Torrey
Philemon: GROAN, Theseus!
14:15 Hetaira
Lysias: They fall pretty low on the food chain Theseus, despite our present day
feelings about it.
14:15 maia
Nestor: Good point, Athenia...but I think it's even simpler than this. Those who
betray must pay for it. They did the crime, they were now out of time.
14:15 Athenia
Glaucon: I've been watching ALOT of anime recently. <embarrased smile>
14:16 maia
Nestor: *thus spaketh Testosteronus Aristides*
14:16 Hetaira
Lysias: My condolences Athenia....don't you find that big pupil thing a lil'
unnerving?
14:16 Aurora
Inca: And I thought I was going to come here today and be SERIOUS.
14:16 Torrey
Philemon: You know one of the suitors was supposedly a good guy too. Amphinomos.
Penelope likes him best, and he's the most civilized, but he's killed too.
14:17 Hetaira
Lysias: Blame Cafiwhatshisname, he did it Aurora.
14:17 Athenia
Glaucon: Not really, and i love the bizarre subtexts.
14:17 maia
Nestor: The best intentions gaft on agley, Aurora. ????
14:17 Athenia
Glaucon: Good or bad, he's still an invader...
14:17 Aurora
Inca: Well, if Penelope likes him, he's the biggest threat to O.
14:18 Theseus
Artistides: Oh, see! I never even thought of that name! However, Athenia's
vengeance slant makes me feel much better about the whole thing.
14:18 maia
Nestor: Because he was part of it, Torrey. He could have left, he could have refused
to take part, but he stayed.
14:18 Athenia
Glaucon: Its not vengeance - its justice.
14:19 maia
Nestor: The lesson had to be absolute. And remember, they were all plotting
Telemachos' murder...and they would have killed O if they had been given the chance.
14:19 Torrey
Philemon: That's what i figured, maia. He missed his chance to save himself.
14:19 Athenia
Glaucon: I'm not sqeamish about blood. I have ethics, but from O's point of view -
he's got to go.
14:19 Hetaira
Lysias: The suitors got all sorts of warnings too, how many omens do you need to
figure it out? "Get out, it's evil!" painted on the wall? Sheesh.
14:19 Theseus
Artistides: Is that line from "Deathwish" Athenia?
14:19 maia
Nestor: Yes Athenia...yes! Hey, all that anime isn't doing you any real harm,
thankfully....*grin*
14:20 maia
Nestor: From Athena's pov, too.
14:20 maia
Nestor: Good point, Hetaira!
14:20 Torrey
Philemon: What would Telemachus' situation be if Penelope had married one of the
suitors (we could write an alternate scenario too). I mean, would he still have been a
threat...inheritor of the royal house or something like that?
14:20 Hetaira
Lysias: anime harmful? Nahhh, just stilted in the dialogue department.
14:21 Theseus
Artistides: LOL - Very good point, Hetaira!
14:21 Athenia
Glaucon: <swinging a mean stick> I am NOT bloodthirsty! Okay, I am. :-)
14:21 Athenia
Glaucon: Not the stuff I'm watching, its damn twisted.
14:21 maia
Nestor: Oh yes, Torrey...he would have been history so damned fast...
14:21 Torrey
Philemon: Someone want to write an alternate script? What would have happened IF...
14:22 maia
Nestor: They were after the kingship after all, and made noises that he could keep his
house, but that never would have happened.
14:22 Athenia
Glaucon: Good question Torrey - was possession 9/10 of the law?
14:22 Hetaira
Lysias: Personally, I'll take a nice Aeon Flux any day of the week. She's a babe!
14:22 Torrey
Philemon: So Penelope's choosing to marry wouldn't have helped Telemachus after all?
It would only have fulfilled her obligation to follow Odysseus' guidance?
14:23 Athenia
Glaucon: It definitely wouldn't have helped Telemachus if she had a child by her new
husband!
14:23 Theseus
Artistides: Uh-oh, something's not right here...
14:24 maia
Nestor: No, it wouldn't have helped him in the long run at all. And she knew it. She
was quite brilliant, I think; achieving that exquisite balance. Once the suitors made it
clear that they wouldn't be leaving, she kept it all together in an exemplary balancing
act.
14:25 maia
Nestor: Once one of the suitors was king, regardless of offspring, Telemachos would
have been a threat.
14:25 Theseus Artistides enters...
14:25 diopan
Nestor: can't it be that she lost hope of him coming and got lonely?
14:26 Hetaira
Lysias: And her test for the suitors was pretty inventive.
14:26 maia
Nestor: No, diopan...I think she makes it clear that she really despises them. They
dishonor her, don't they? They don't listen...they don't leave when she asks them
to.
14:26 Torrey
Philemon: (Who could ever get lonely enough to marry one of those pigs?)
14:27 maia
Nestor: Well guys, it's been a slice but I have to take my leave. Theseus, you
behave.
14:27 Torrey
Philemon: And she overhears them talking about killing Telemachus. She actually starts
spying on them, overhearing their conversation.
14:28 Hetaira
Lysias: Yeah, what maia said, I need to blow this popstand too.
14:28 Athenia
Glaucon: Oh no!!! Maia...you're always the soul of the conversation? Who's going to
keep Theseus and Hetaira under control? :-)
14:28 maia
Nestor: Later, everyone!
14:28 Athenia
Glaucon: Bye!
14:28 Torrey
Philemon: So you all want to officially end?
14:29 Athenia
Glaucon: Yeah, maybe not a bad idea...
14:29 Hetaira
Lysias: I'm not controllable. *mild smile*
14:29 maia Nestor exits...
14:29 Aurora
Inca: I was just thinking that I need to be moving on. Perhaps I can manage a more
serious mode for the next chat.
14:29 Athenia
Glaucon: Bye H.! I'm sure I'll run into you soon. <s>
14:30 Athenia
Glaucon: Okay, I guess I'll go too....bye!
14:30 Torrey
Philemon: I need to go soon myself. Is there anything anyone wants to bring up in
closing? And anyone willing to lead the next/last chat?
14:30 Hetaira
Lysias: Oh yeah, I'm going to be at your open house with my video tapes and phone
transcripts, remember?
14:30 Hetaira
Lysias: Later folks!
14:30 Athenia
Glaucon: I look forward to it...
14:30 Hetaira Lysias exits...
14:30 Athenia Glaucon exits...
14:31 Torrey
Philemon: Who's still here?
14:31 Aurora
Inca: I am, but about to leave.
14:32 Torrey
Philemon: Ok, well then I guess we're over for today!
14:32 Aurora
Inca: OK. Bye. I'll try to be at the next/last one.
14:32 Aurora Inca exits...
14:33 Torrey
Philemon: Goodbye Aurora and anyone else who is here ...
back to beginnning of chat five
go to chat six
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