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ODYSSEY CHAT FIVE: Odyssey, Books 17-20
11:47 Ioannis Nestor enters...
11:56 Theseus Artistides enters...
Artistides: *whoosh!* Here I am!
Artistides: Hello Ioannis.
Nestor: Hey Theseus, what's up?
11:58 Torrey Philemon enters...
Nestor: Hi Torrey!
Artistides: Not much yet, apparently. Ah! There she is!
Philemon: Hey folks. Two people here already?
Nestor: I guess Maia is in her way too...
Artistides: Another threesome to start.
Philemon: Just noticed she's on the comm panel. Hope she's coming.
Artistides: I have an opening thought, whenever we're ready to go...
12:01 Aurora Inca enters...
Inca: Hello! Happy Ides!
Artistides: I dropped her a gram hint a couple of minutes ago.
Nestor: Hi Aurora...Theseus go ahead!
Philemon: Welcome Aurora. And go ahead Theseus!
Artistides: Hello Aurora!
Philemon: (Ioannis, are you a clone?)
Artistides: Well it struck me that the odyssey part of the Odyssey only really
accounts for about one-sixth of the book. It seems to me this isn't about a
fantastic, dangerous voyage really, as it is about separation and home-coming.
Nestor: I guess so... :)
Nestor: Yep...The great NOSTOS thing...
Nestor: The feeling of missing home and wishing urgently to go back...
Philemon: That's right, isn't it? I hadn't remembered that (from reading it 20 years
ago) that so much IS about homecoming....We tend to think more of the "odyssey".
Artistides: I mean it isn't about that as much as it is about this.
Philemon: So much is about Odysseus' preparation to confront the suitors...
Nestor: But every adventure and "odyssey" is about that!
Artistides: Well, that's the part that generally makes for more "exciting"
12:06 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
Philemon: Gee, it might not have sounded so interesting if it was called "The
Beggar in Disguise" or "The Great Disguise" instead of the Odyssey.
Nestor: Hi Ricardex.
Cornelius: helo all, just a quick run in and a reminder, the balloting for the
new books to be read as a group is still open so......
Philemon: Hello Ricardex. Hope you'll stay awhile, and "come home" here
rather than "odyssey"
Inca: I voted! (I'm a good girl)
Nestor: I voted too...
Cornelius: Well I may be back the combination of three AS id's an d real world demands
today is pressing.
Philemon: We're all the ones that are paying attention. I think FB like all groups has
a lot of inactive members.
Artistides: I voted! But then, I'll bet anyone who read my posts gathered that.
Cornelius: Yes, well speaking to the converted then....
Artistides: Maia says she'll get here. Well, that's what she meant.
12:10 Ricardex Cornelius exits...
Nestor: What's the reason of joining a group if you don't patrticipate :(
Artistides: "Preaching to the choir"
Philemon: Ok folks. I posted about eight questions about books 17-20 late last night
on our FB board, but before I bring any of them up, what interests you?
Artistides: Well, just to be kind, I imagine people think they'll have more time to
devote to something than it turns out they really do.
Nestor: I may be boring, but what about the archaeology and history of it?
Inca: I'm behind on my reading (as usual). Have you already discussed the swineherd. I
was wondering why Homer speaks to him directly. "And then you, etc."
Philemon: (Or would someone else like to have a chance at facilitating today. Theseus,
what if you did the next and last meeting next week?)
Artistides: I didn't get to read your latest questions, Torrey, as AOL wouldn't let me
into AS this morning.
Inca: Now, that would interest me Ioannis, as I am into archeology, but I don't know
much about that reagion/time period.
Philemon: Didn't realize he did that, Aurora. He presents the swineherd differently
than the other characters? (It's certainly a new context for pigs, not like Circe)
12:14 maia Nestor enters...
Nestor: Well, the time period should be the Dark Ages (10th-8th centuries BC).
Nestor: Hey maia! :)
Artistides: Hi Maia!
Philemon: Welcome Maia
Nestor: Hello, everyone.
Inca: He sure does. Almost as if Eumaeus were in the room listening to the tale.
Artistides: He doesn't do anything different with the swineherd in my version.
Maybe it's translation specific.
Philemon: It occurred to me last night. Eumaeus, Eurycleia. The good people have names
beginning eu, which means good, doesn't it?
Inca: An example "And your answer, Eumaeus". It says things like that in
mine. My trans. is Lawrence.
Inca: I think it actually means "true"
Philemon: Some of the bad people like Antinous have names beginning
Nestor: I suggest you 2 very interesting papers. The first is "Gifts in
Homer" by J.T. Hooker and the other"Social diversity in Dark Age Greece" by
Nestor: Eumaus, o my eumaeus, is obviously very special to Odysseus. He's part of the
Ithakan glue, I think...holds it together for O.
Artistides: (The only reason I don't volunteer to lead the discussion is because I can
rarely guarantee a chunk of my Sunday, let alone three hours. I would be happy to do
it, but my wife and son...)
Nestor: Hooker's Mycenaean Greece is also a wonderful book, Io.
Nestor: It's a MUST maia!
Philemon: Aurora, can you give us a passage number where Odysseus is speaking directly
Nestor: Torrey, was it you who mentioned pigs? They were staples of the economy; none
of the modern, negative connotations.
Artistides: Well, O speaks directly to Eumaeus all the time. I think it's Homer
who's the issue.
Inca: I don't have numbers in my trans., but it's all through Book 14, at least. I
haven't gotten much further than that.
Philemon: I was just concentrating the pigs of Eumaeus with the pigs of Circe...
Philemon: contrasting, I mean.
Nestor: OIC ...
Philemon: Here's one of the questions I posted, folks. If Odysseus is at war 10 years
and journeying for 10 years, and Telemachus is now growing his first beard, don't we have
time discrepancy? OR (-: was puberty really late in ancient times? He's got to be age
Inca: Maybe he was a late bloomer?
Nestor: This is a minor discrepancy I think...
Artistides: This is not the first time I've gotten the impression Homer is a bit free
and easy with the time figuring.
12:24 Gorgo Cleomenes enters...
Nestor: Well, some men grow beards at different times...I think it was just a
reference to his manhood coming into play.
Philemon: Yet there is a reference to Odysseus being on Calypso's isle when the
Telemachus story begins....So there may have been still a year to go before the
conclusion. But probably only a few months.
Philemon: Welcome Gorgo! Feel free to join in. Our focus is books 17-20, but not
Nestor: Hi Gorgo!
Cleomenes: Um, thanks Torrey. I've already been to a few FB discussions.
Artistides: Now, isn't there evidence that the onset of puberty is actually occurring
earlier and earlier?
12:29 Ioannis Nestor enters...
Philemon: At what age do men/boys grow beards now, Theseus? (got to ask a male about
Nestor: Sorry to interrupt guys but are you interested to see The Odyssey written in
Artistides: By which I mean, maybe Telemachus didn't start growing his beard until he
was about twenty.
Inca: Some of my high school sophomores actually have decent beards, and they haven't
been held back any grades.
Inca: (but MOST of them don't)
Nestor: Torrey, that's just too speculative. My brother was nearly thirty, my husband
20. Some guys have facial hair at 13.
Artistides: I've seen kids with facial hair at thirteen, but I wouldn't say that's
Philemon: Well given that Telemachus at one point says he's not sure Odysseus is
really his father, one begins to wonder (grin!), though I'm sure that's not Homer's
Inca: I think in Telem.'s case it's figurative. I think he's kind of late accepting
his adult responsibilities.
Nestor: I think we have to accept the bearded reference for a visualization that he'd
Artistides: (I hate those linear Bs! I think a B should have a couple of nice
Philemon: Ok. Enough said then. What else do you all want to address?
Nestor: He doesn't say he's not sure, he says, does anyone really know who his father
is? My mother says so, but how do I know?
Cleomenes: Well, it's quite obvious from the earlier books that Telemachos is moving
into his adult stages. He learns proper etiquette when with Nestor.
Artistides: Yes, his query is more philosophical than personal.
Philemon: Ioannis, I opened your link in another window and got the index for the
Daresbury Synchrotron Light Source.
12:35 Ioannis Nestor enters...
Artistides: (Ah-ha! I suspected Ioannis was one of those Synchrotronians!)
Philemon: The Synchrotronians, huh? Must be another part of Odysseus' journey!
Nestor: Try the above!
Artistides: Okay, speaking of other parts, have we done with Telemachus's beard?
Philemon: It works, Ioannis!
Nestor: It's very interesting!!!
Philemon: So next subject....?
Nestor: I'm off guys. See ya all later...
Artistides: (Oh, I can't resist...! I wonder what the history of literature
would have been like if the Greeks had settled on some other physical sign of a youth's
Cleomenes: Bye Ioannis.
Inca: Somehow saying a youth with down upon his chin sound more poetic than "a
youth whose voice cracks"
Philemon: Glad you came by, Ioannis.
Nestor: LOL Theseus!
Nestor: Bye, Ioannis!
Philemon: LOL Aurora (or wet dreams, even!)
Inca: You mean "a youth with stains upon his chiton"? (sorry, had to say it)
Artistides: "Now the time had come when nightly did Telemachus moisten his
Nestor: Torrey, as the host, I'm telling you, you can't lose control like this...*g*
Inca: *giggling uncontrollably*
Artistides: Okay! I'm sorry I started it, I admit!
Inca: *resumes a serious demeanor*
Artistides: Quick Torrey, give us one of your questions!
Nestor: *beaming at Aurora*
Philemon: (Given how informal the chat was last week, maia, I thought perhaps I should
be a little looser! I was just debating whether or not to restate Theseus comment as
"Now the time...when nightly did Telemachus come....SORRY, FOLKS!)
Nestor: Informal? My chat?
Philemon: Ok here's another question. Why do you think Penelope set up the archery
contest, instead of directly choosing one of the suitors...)
Nestor: I think there could be any number of answers to that question...
Artistides: Oh, that's easy... She thought they would all fail! That archery
stunt is incredibly difficult and she thought only O could do it.
Cleomenes: Um, probably because she was cognizant of the power of the bow and the
fact it was somewhat divinely inspired.
Philemon: You're on, Maia!
Inca: That way she didn't have to accept responsibility for the choice. It coud be in
the hands of the gods or fate. Then if she was unhappy, she wouldn't have to blame
Nestor: Firstly, and this seems to me to be the most obvious, the Mycenaeans were very
contest-driven. It would be the easiest solution in many ways...sort of, hey, he won fair
Philemon: So it was another delaying tactic?...And if someone did meet the challenge,
it would be someone who at least had one similarity to Odysseus?
Cleomenes: And by this time, she is told--not by an excellent source--that the suitors
will meet death.
Nestor: Next, I echo Gorgo, and Aurora. Also, it ocurred to me that Athena put it into
her mind. Athena had that agenda...
Philemon: Good point, Aurora. She could choose without choosing!
Artistides: Yes, Torrey. That's what I think exactly.
Cleomenes: Plus, one has to wonder if Penelope suspects the beggar is Odysseus. You
have a Mycenaean queen telling a very personal dream to someone she barely knows. Hmmm
Inca: Like "eeny meeny miny mo, catch a suitor by the toe"
Artistides: Incidentally, I can't tell you how hard it was to stop reading at the end
of book 20.
Philemon: My own impression is that Penelope has given up on Odysseus' eventual
return. She says that repeatedly...she just doesn't believe that Odysseus is still alive,
even when told so over and over again.
Nestor: Yes, Gorgo....REAMS have been written on that, did Penelope know?
Nestor: I don't think it's that she doesn't believe, Torrey, or that she doesn't want
to believe...she desperately wants to believe...but she's afraid to hope.
Cleomenes: My personal theory is that she keeps the knowledge to herself so that she
can protect her oikos.
Philemon: Well said, Maia. It's too hard to have one's hopes repeatedly disappointed.
It's easier to give them up and just accept the despair.
Cleomenes: No, Penelope always had hope for the return of Odysseus.
12:52 Athenia Glaucon enters...
Glaucon: Hello my friends!
Philemon: Gorgo, but over and over again, she says, Odysseus is dead, Odysseus won't
return, or something like that, whenever she's told that he will.
Nestor: Well, maybe it wasn't that well said, Gorgo. Of course she hoped, she just was
afraid to allow herself such a luxury, you know? Like being two brained...you want it so
badly, you're afraid to trust it.
Nestor: Auntie Athenia!
Philemon: Hello Auntie Athenia!
Glaucon: Yes, yes, I'm here to dispense advice, but not wisdom. ;-)
Cleomenes: She's realist. She's almost the double of Odysseus and she has to maintain
her oikos and the Ithacan line. She can't let herself be taken by flights of fancy. Plus,
characters aren't two-dimensional. They say one thing, but think another.
Artistides: Doesn't anyone want to ask why the axe-arrow trick is so hard, or is
everyone comfortable with the ballistics already?
Philemon: So Athena/Athenia, don't you think Odysseus was quick to trust you after you
had supposedly abandoned him for so many years, because of Poseidon?
Artistides: <==Apparently a frustrated physics instructor.
Glaucon: No, Torrey, I don't think Athena abandoned Odysseus. There's a point where
every teacher needs to let the student go out on their own, make their own mistakes, then
return for more training.
Cleomenes: Oh yes, Torrey I urge to look at 19.125. Her speech there is quite
Inca: Having some hands-on experience with early weapons, I would just trust Homer's
word that it's hard, but if you want to share, go ahead....
Philemon: Theseus, doesn't it appear that just stringing the bow was the hardest part?
Though Telemachus almost had it, when Odysseus restrained him from succeeding (will look,
Nestor: The axe scenario is still one of hot debate, Theseus. There are any number of
Glaucon: Stringing the bow is about technique, shooting it is about skill, they are
related, but nont synonymous.
Nestor: It's a composite bow, Torrey. There's a trick to it. You can't just string it.
You have to be seated, put it across your leg...the Odyssey show on NBC got that part
right, at least.
Nestor: And of course there would be a trick to it....highlighting the cleverness of
O, the man of many turns.
Artistides: Thank you, Aurora! Well, like any projectile an arrow travels in an
arc. (That's why you generally don't aim straight at a target, but above it.)
The task here is fit that arc through a series of really very small openings all set in a
line. To accomplish this, the arrow would have to be launched with incredible
velocity, requiring a very powerful bow, and a very strong archer.
Philemon: The suitors apparently aren't as strong as Telemachus. They've been spending
all their time eating and partying....
Glaucon: The test thus test two different skills...power of mind and then arm. None of
the suitors would be able to do that.
Inca: That explains why I always miss!
Artistides: And the stringing it part is past book 20 - somebody's cheating!
Philemon: Patience. It requires a lot of patience and attention to detail, which
Nestor: The book doesn't explain that, Theseus. About the stringing...that's been
posited by Homeric scholars ever since.
Glaucon: Not just patience - technique. to do it effortlessly, as O. does, takes
practice, which takes patience.
Glaucon: Heck, Maia, I have trouble stringing a regular 70lb. recurve.
Nestor: A, I find it hard to believe you have trouble with anything!
Artistides: Surely she is being modest.
Glaucon: Nope - just honest. :-)
Glaucon: Theseus, NO ONE has ever accused me of being modest.
Artistides: Good! Personally, I think it's an ugly trait.
Nestor: NEVER modest...but she can be a lil bit self-effacing. There's always womb for
improvement, as Auntie might say...
Artistides: Anyway, next question! *grin*
Philemon: Ok here's another question. Penelope's dream. I have trouble with the
interpretation of it, because it begins that Penelope dreams she loved to watch the geese
and then an eagle killed them. She loved to watch the geese? But she didn't love to watch
Glaucon: So, why *did* Odysseus stop telemachus from becoming the man of the house and
string the bow?
Philemon: (Odysseus wanted HIS own revenge...when the time was right, and he had the
situation set up to kill all the suitors...right?)
Artistides: I didn't get the dream either, Torrey. And that's what I meant about
beyond book 20, Athenia. *grin* (I think it's just so that he can get that weapon
into his hands, but I haven't read that far yet.)
Nestor: I think it was part of Athena's plan, too. The slight was against his house,
he had to take the revenge. Show everyone that he was still viable.
13:10 Myrrhine Solon enters...
Inca: Dreams sometimes start like that. An ordinary scene, and then the symbolism
starts to kick in. Maybe it was an ordinary dream to begin with, and then the omen-giving
gods used it to get their message across.
13:11 Hetaira Lysias enters...
Artistides: Or, forgive me for going out on a Freudian limb, maybe Penelope's
subconscious is betraying the idea that she might like all the attention the birds have
been giving her.
Philemon: Welcome, Myrhhine...Well, it's puzzling. My first impression of the dream is
that the geese are something she treasures, and that the eagle is the "bad guy".
The interpretation given then reverses it
Lysias: Hey there folks. *groggy smile*
Glaucon: Welcome to the world of light, Hetaira. <g>
Nestor: BTW, gang, Gorgo sends her regrets.
Philemon: Heh heh Maia might dispute that, Theseus! (the old
Inca: Theseus - good point. Who isn't flattered by attention a little bit, even if
unwanted, if it isn't TOO annoying.
Lysias: Hey Athenia, Theseus, maia and anyone else I can't focus properly on at the
Glaucon: Maybe, Torrey, she doesn't "enjoy" watching the geese as much as
she finds them amusing.
Nestor: Now come on, Torrey, I never said she was without fault! She'd be perfect
then, and perfection is boring.
Artistides: Now, how am I going to keep the goofy grin off my face?
Nestor: Hetaira stayed up way too late last night partying with me. My fault.
Philemon: I'm partly teasing you, Maia!
Lysias: Why would that be Freudian Theseus? *curious look*
Artistides: Whoa, the dream interp. thing was just an idle thought!
Nestor: Just partly, Torrey? *grin*
Lysias: Dream interpretation by way of Freud is pretty limited, he always took it back
to the basics; penis-envy, id and unresolved childhood issues.
Artistides: Ah, then I am mistaken... The subconscious is hardly my forte.
Philemon: Fagles: I keep 20 geese in the house, from the water trough/ they come and
peck their wheat - I love to watchm them. But down from a mountain swooped this great
Lysias: Now a Jungian interpretation of the dream might uncover some interesting
archetypes. Birds in particular could be seen as freedom, flight from responsibility, so
Nestor: And the conscious, Theseus?
Artistides: And Freud is even further down there on my list of specialties.
Artistides: I'm certainly better with the conscious.
Lysias: I think he might have even said birds were higher thought processes.
Philemon: The eagle is so often an omen....divine intervention.
Glaucon: And geese are certainly earthy birds, commonplace, where eagles were more
lofty, more "of the Gods."
Nestor: As a rule, I always defer to oracles and hetairae.
Inca: Domesticity vs. the Hunter. The stay-at-home suitors defeated by the homecoming
Philemon: I get hung up on the part about "she loved to watch" the geese (
I'm a dream therapist and lead dream interpretation groups in real life, so I can
get carried away with this)
Lysias: Divine intervention in that time, the higher mind in this time? There
was no ego, super-ego or anima/animus in Homer's day. *grin*
Glaucon: Hetairae first - they know everything.
Philemon: Maia, that's a great "signature line"!
Glaucon: But that might be Fagles's words, not Penelope's. Anyone else got a different
Lysias: Yeah actually, I just saw Aurora's comment, I like that.
Nestor: And that's a good point, Hetaira...there were omens in Homer's time, but
certainly no consciousness of the subconscious.
Philemon: Hetaira, I'd think it was all there, they just called it by another name.
Hubris for one..
Lysias: I have Fitzgerald's around here *searching*
Inca: What book is the "loved to watch" in? I haven't read that far....
Artistides: I'm thinking 19.
Philemon: There's some theory isn't there Maia about the development of the human
brain since Homer's time. Like the right brain and left brain were configured
differently...and what was in the "unconscious" was once projected onto
gods/omens and actually heard as "voices". Forget the source, there's some book
on the subject...
Lysias: So Hubris in that day an age translates to what in common day? Not being true
to your higher mind?
Philemon: In Fagles, it's 19:606...
Glaucon: That's pretty much the way it is in most aboriginal cultures. Folks who
"see" or "hear" things are touched by the gods.
Nestor: Hubris is just being insolent towards the gods. Well, Torrey, I don't ascribe
to that theory...human evolution works far more slowly than that. It's just cultural
Nestor: Are you thinking of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, Torrey?
Inca: OK. Lawrence says "and I love wtaching them"
Philemon: I brought up hubris in reference the comment about no conception of EGO or
Glaucon: My ancient translation says that the geese "gladden her eyes."
Inca: I've read that, too, Torrey. Though I don't remember where. And those that still
hear them as voices, we treat with medication.
Philemon: That may be the source, Maia.
Nestor: In simpler times, things were simpler.
Artistides: I agree with Maia on the cultural vs. evolution aspect. (But
apparently, I have nothing new to add.)
Glaucon: Its by S.O. Andrew from the 1953 Everyman's library. My mom or dad stole it
from the public library. ;-)
Nestor: Like Agamemnon, when he is trying, in the Iliad to say why he acted in such a
way, just shrugs his shoulders and says ATE....
Nestor: They had a very simple heroic code, and that is how they lived. None of this,
my father left me, my mother was a tramp....they didn't THINK in those terms.
Lysias: Yes, I know, and I was asking for clarification Torrey, you threw hubris out
there, quantify it for me in present day psychology so that I know I'm getting the message
Lysias: Please. :)
Philemon: My reference to hubris was just an aside. Just musing on different
conceptions of ego, in different ways, at different times...
Lysias: Okay, just checking. I thought you had something specific in mind.
Artistides: I thought hubris was overweaning arrogance, in particular in relation to a
mortal and the gods and/or fate.
Nestor: Yes, just real insolence. Believing in yourself to the exclusion of the
Artistides: Is it time for another question?
Lysias: I think we established that Theseus, I was actually thinking about how hubris
works in post depth-psychology minds. :)
Lysias: i.e. would hubris be someone with control issues? *grin*
Glaucon: We'd probably call it sociopathy.
Philemon: Anyone else want to put out a question? I always have a reservoir of them,
but let's see what you all have.
Artistides: "post depth-psychology minds"?
Lysias: Meglomania Athenia?
Lysias: Yeah Theseus...post Freud/Jung.
Artistides: Oh, I get it. Never mind.
Glaucon: No, because that allows for other people, even if only as tools.
sociopathy is about "me."
Artistides: I seem to be somewhat slow today.
Lysias: I'm with ya Theseus. *tired smile*
Artistides: (Let me know when it's nap time.) *grin*
Glaucon: Nap time! Followed by milk and cookies for the whole class!
Lysias: Oh, don't go there Theseus. *grin*
Artistides: I think there are people (absolutely not me!) who would say our entire
modern culture suffers from hubris.
13:35 Athenia Glaucon enters...
Philemon: You all are reaffirming my theory that 1 1/2 hours into an
"educational" chat people need a breather and want to regress!
Glaucon: Not all of us, but there are quite a few who do.
Artistides: Aw, and that's my favorite place, too! *faux pout*
Lysias: Nietsche (sp?) is to blame Theseus; God Is Dead. ;)
Nestor: I have more of an observation than a question; it is clear to me that out of
all the characters Homer did, he truly loved Odysseus the most. Seemed enthralled with the
Philemon: Interesting point, Theseus.
Glaucon: No, it was the age of "reason" that did it.
Lysias: Forgot a "z" somewhere along the line. *scratching head*
Artistides: Yeah, I can usually take about two hours of chat like this max.
Philemon: Why do you say that, Maia? Because he presents Odysseus in such a positive
Inca: I think we regressed earlier with the "ways of describing entering
Glaucon: I don't think he does present O. in a positive light, but certainly a more
Glaucon: Oh, dear - I'm glad I missed that part, Aurora. :-)
Artistides: Maybe we just need to run around the playground.
Nestor: Well as a writer, you know you can fall in love with your character. He made
Odysseus the most rounded of all his, imo. A modern, thinking on his feet human...it was
clear he admired him enormously.
Lysias: O seems very human to me, meaty and substantial, like Homer based him on
someone he knew.
Inca: *ring* RECESS!!!!
Lysias: I have dibs on the swings!
Artistides: I'm also fascinated by the utter lack of moral stigma attached to lying
throughout this book.
Nestor: Someone he knew, or someone he had learned to love; Homer was using a
tradition that was already there, right?
Nestor: Ah Theseus...again, that's because a hero survived. A hero did what he could
to effect the survival. He was brave. Lying isn't seen by them as cowardly.
Philemon: Right, Theseus. There's even one point at which Odysseus says he hates men
who lie...they're the lowest of the low, or something like that.
Glaucon: I get the seesaw!
Lysias: This is true maia.
Glaucon: Maia speaks from the same perspective as Homer - she also loves O. :-)
Artistides: (I always go for the monkey bars, myself. But if Hetaira needs a
push or a dozen, I'm happy to offer my services.)
Lysias: I would think truth/falsehoods were very much tied in with honor in that time,
so they were more open to interpretation....one lie is not as bad as another type o' thing
Philemon: Book 14: 184, Odysseus says, "I hate that man who like the very Gates
of Death who/ground down by poverty stoops to peddling lies...
Lysias: I'm so there Theseus, push away. :)
Artistides: I don't think the dishonesty is mysterious, but the way Homer revels in it
at times is, for me, fascinating.
Philemon: Now folks, it's my avatar who's sitting on a swing! (-:
Nestor: Echoing what Achilles said? But Achilles meant it...
Nestor: Yes, Athenia...you've nailed me right! I do love him...
Glaucon: You know, H., of the significance of the swing, don't you?
Philemon: Odysseus however isn't stooping to peddling lies. He's rising to the
occasion, supposedly for a higher purpose (like mass murder. Did you read the contemporary
news story interpretation of Odysseus as a mass murderer?)
Artistides: (I can do the hopping from one to the other, pushing both of you.
Hmmm, that's... oh, never mind!)
continue with chat five