ODYSSEY CHAT  FIVE: Odyssey, Books 17-20

11:47 Ioannis Nestor enters...
11:56 Theseus Artistides enters...
11:57 Theseus Artistides: *whoosh!* Here I am!
11:58 Theseus Artistides: Hello Ioannis.
11:58 Ioannis Nestor: Hey Theseus, what's up?
11:58 Torrey Philemon enters...
11:59 Ioannis Nestor: Hi Torrey!
11:59 Theseus Artistides: Not much yet, apparently. Ah!  There she is!
11:59 Torrey Philemon: Hey folks. Two people here already?
12:00 Ioannis Nestor: I guess Maia is in her way too...
12:00 Theseus Artistides: Another threesome to start.
12:00 Torrey Philemon: Just noticed she's on the comm panel. Hope she's coming.
12:01 Theseus Artistides: I have an opening thought, whenever we're ready to go...
12:01 Aurora Inca enters...
12:01 Aurora Inca: Hello! Happy Ides!
12:01 Theseus Artistides: I dropped her a gram hint a couple of minutes ago.
12:01 Ioannis Nestor: Hi Aurora...Theseus go ahead!
12:01 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Aurora. And go ahead Theseus!
12:01 Theseus Artistides: Hello Aurora! 
12:02 Torrey Philemon: (Ioannis, are you a clone?)
12:03 Theseus Artistides: Well it struck me that the odyssey part of the Odyssey only really accounts for about one-sixth of the book.  It seems to me this isn't about a fantastic, dangerous voyage really, as it is about separation and home-coming.
12:03 Ioannis Nestor: I guess so... :)
12:03 Ioannis Nestor: Yep...The great NOSTOS thing...
12:04 Theseus Artistides: "NOSTOS"?
12:04 Ioannis Nestor: The feeling of missing home and wishing urgently to go back...
12:05 Torrey Philemon: That's right, isn't it? I hadn't remembered that (from reading it 20 years ago) that so much IS about homecoming....We tend to think more of the "odyssey".
12:05 Theseus Artistides: I mean it isn't about that as much as it is about this.
12:06 Torrey Philemon: So much is about Odysseus' preparation to confront the suitors...
12:06 Ioannis Nestor: But every adventure and "odyssey" is about that!
12:06 Theseus Artistides: Well, that's the part that generally makes for more "exciting" movies.
12:06 Ricardex Cornelius enters...
12:07 Torrey Philemon: Gee, it might not have sounded so interesting if it was called "The Beggar in Disguise" or "The Great Disguise" instead of the Odyssey.
12:07 Ioannis Nestor: Hi Ricardex.
12:07 Ricardex Cornelius: helo all, just a quick run in and a reminder, the balloting  for the new books to be read as a group is still open so......
12:08 Torrey Philemon: Hello Ricardex. Hope you'll stay awhile, and "come home" here rather than "odyssey"
12:08 Aurora Inca: I voted! (I'm a good girl)
12:08 Ioannis Nestor: I voted too...
12:08 Ricardex Cornelius: Well I may be back the combination of three AS id's an d real world demands today is pressing.
12:09 Torrey Philemon: We're all the ones that are paying attention. I think FB like all groups has a lot of inactive members.
12:09 Theseus Artistides: I voted!  But then, I'll bet anyone who read my posts gathered that.
12:09 Ricardex Cornelius: Yes, well speaking to the converted then....
12:10 Theseus Artistides: Maia says she'll get here.  Well, that's what she meant.
12:10 Ricardex Cornelius exits...
12:10 Ioannis Nestor: What's the reason of joining a group if you don't patrticipate :(
12:10 Theseus Artistides: "Preaching to the choir"
12:11 Torrey Philemon: Ok folks. I posted about eight questions about books 17-20 late last night on our FB board, but before I bring any of them up, what interests you?
12:11 Theseus Artistides: Well, just to be kind, I imagine people think they'll have more time to devote to something than it turns out they really do.
12:12 Ioannis Nestor: I may be boring, but what about the archaeology and history of it?
12:12 Aurora Inca: I'm behind on my reading (as usual). Have you already discussed the swineherd. I was wondering why Homer speaks to him directly. "And then you, etc."
12:12 Torrey Philemon: (Or would someone else like to have a chance at facilitating today. Theseus, what if you did the next and last meeting next week?)
12:12 Theseus Artistides: I didn't get to read your latest questions, Torrey, as AOL wouldn't let me into AS this morning.
12:13 Aurora Inca: Now, that would interest me Ioannis, as I am into archeology, but I don't know much about that reagion/time period.
12:14 Torrey Philemon: Didn't realize he did that, Aurora. He presents the swineherd differently than the other characters? (It's certainly a new context for pigs, not like Circe)
12:14 maia Nestor enters...
12:14 Ioannis Nestor: Well, the time period should be the Dark Ages (10th-8th centuries BC).
12:15 Ioannis Nestor: Hey maia! :)
12:15 Theseus Artistides: Hi Maia!
12:15 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Maia
12:15 maia Nestor: Hello, everyone.
12:16 Aurora Inca: He sure does. Almost as if Eumaeus were in the room listening to the tale.
12:16 Theseus Artistides: He doesn't do anything different with the swineherd in my version.  Maybe it's translation specific.
12:17 Torrey Philemon: It occurred to me last night. Eumaeus, Eurycleia. The good people have names beginning eu, which means good, doesn't it?
12:17 Aurora Inca: An example "And your answer, Eumaeus". It says things like that in mine. My trans. is Lawrence.
12:17 Aurora Inca: I think it actually means "true"
12:17 Torrey Philemon: Some of the bad people like Antinous have names beginning "anti"...
12:17 Ioannis Nestor: I suggest you 2 very interesting papers. The first is "Gifts in Homer" by J.T. Hooker and the other"Social diversity in Dark Age Greece" by J. Whitley.
12:18 maia Nestor: Eumaus, o my eumaeus, is obviously very special to Odysseus. He's part of the Ithakan glue, I think...holds it together for O.
12:18 Theseus Artistides: (The only reason I don't volunteer to lead the discussion is because I can rarely guarantee a chunk of my Sunday, let alone three hours.  I would be happy to do it, but my wife and son...)
12:18 maia Nestor: Hooker's Mycenaean Greece is also a wonderful book, Io.
12:19 Ioannis Nestor: It's a MUST maia!
12:19 Torrey Philemon: Aurora, can you give us a passage number where Odysseus is speaking directly to Eumaeus.
12:20 maia Nestor: Torrey, was it you who mentioned pigs? They were staples of the economy; none of the modern, negative connotations. 
12:20 Theseus Artistides: Well, O speaks directly to Eumaeus all the time.  I think it's Homer who's the issue.
12:20 Aurora Inca: I don't have numbers in my trans., but it's all through Book 14, at least. I haven't gotten much further than that.
12:20 Torrey Philemon: I was just concentrating the pigs of Eumaeus with the pigs of Circe...
12:21 Torrey Philemon: contrasting, I mean.
12:21 maia Nestor: OIC ...
12:23 Torrey Philemon: Here's one of the questions I posted, folks. If Odysseus is at war 10 years and journeying for 10 years, and Telemachus is now growing his first beard, don't we have time discrepancy? OR (-: was puberty really late in ancient times? He's got to be age 20-21 right?
12:24 Aurora Inca: Maybe he was a late bloomer?
12:24 Ioannis Nestor: This is a minor discrepancy I think...
12:24 Theseus Artistides: This is not the first time I've gotten the impression Homer is a bit free and easy with the time figuring.
12:24 Gorgo Cleomenes enters...
12:25 maia Nestor: Well, some men grow beards at different times...I think it was just a reference to his manhood coming into play.
12:25 maia Nestor: Gorgo!
12:25 Torrey Philemon: Yet there is a reference to Odysseus being on Calypso's isle when the Telemachus story begins....So there may have been still a year to go before the conclusion. But probably only a few months.
12:26 Gorgo Cleomenes: Greetings!
12:27 Torrey Philemon: Welcome Gorgo! Feel free to join in. Our focus is books 17-20, but not exclusively.
12:27 Ioannis Nestor: Hi Gorgo!
12:27 Gorgo Cleomenes: Um, thanks Torrey. I've already been to a few FB discussions.
12:28 Theseus Artistides: Now, isn't there evidence that the onset of puberty is actually occurring earlier and earlier?
12:29 Ioannis Nestor enters...
12:29 Torrey Philemon: At what age do men/boys grow beards now, Theseus? (got to ask a male about this!)
12:30 Ioannis Nestor: Sorry to interrupt guys but are you interested to see The Odyssey written in LINEAR B?
12:30 Theseus Artistides: By which I mean, maybe Telemachus didn't start growing his beard until he was about twenty.
12:30 Aurora Inca: Some of my high school sophomores actually have decent beards, and they haven't been held back any grades.
12:31 Aurora Inca: (but MOST of them don't)
12:31 maia Nestor: Torrey, that's just too speculative. My brother was nearly thirty, my husband 20. Some guys have facial hair at 13.
12:31 Theseus Artistides: I've seen kids with facial hair at thirteen, but I wouldn't say that's common.
12:31 Torrey Philemon: Well given that Telemachus at one point says he's not sure Odysseus is really his father, one begins to wonder (grin!), though I'm  sure that's not Homer's intent!
12:32 Ioannis Nestor: http://www.dl.ac.uk/SRS/PEOPLE/PANTOS/Od_l_1-2LB.html
12:32 Aurora Inca: I think in Telem.'s case it's figurative. I think he's kind of late accepting his adult responsibilities.
12:32 maia Nestor: I think we have to accept the bearded reference for a visualization that he'd reached manhood.
12:32 Theseus Artistides: (I hate those linear Bs!  I think a B should have a couple of nice curves!)
12:32 Torrey Philemon: Ok. Enough said then. What else do you all want to address?
12:33 maia Nestor: He doesn't say he's not sure, he says, does anyone really know who his father is? My mother says so, but how do I know?
12:33 Gorgo Cleomenes: Well, it's quite obvious from the earlier books that Telemachos is moving into his adult stages. He learns proper etiquette when with Nestor.
12:33 Theseus Artistides: Yes, his query is more philosophical than personal.
12:34 Torrey Philemon: Ioannis, I opened your link in another window and got the index for the Daresbury Synchrotron Light Source. 
12:35 Ioannis Nestor enters...
12:35 Theseus Artistides: (Ah-ha!  I suspected Ioannis was one of those Synchrotronians!)
12:36 Ioannis Nestor: http://www.dl.ac.uk/SRS/PEOPLE/PANTOS/Od_I_1-2LB.html
12:36 Torrey Philemon: The Synchrotronians, huh? Must be another part of Odysseus' journey!
12:37 Ioannis Nestor: Try the above!
12:37 Theseus Artistides: Okay, speaking of other parts, have we done with Telemachus's beard?
12:37 Torrey Philemon: It works, Ioannis!
12:38 Ioannis Nestor: It's very interesting!!!
12:38 Torrey Philemon: So next subject....?
12:39 Ioannis Nestor: I'm off guys. See ya all later...
12:39 Theseus Artistides: (Oh, I can't resist...!  I wonder what the history of literature would have been like if the Greeks had settled on some other physical sign of a youth's maturation.)
12:39 Gorgo Cleomenes: Bye Ioannis.
12:40 Aurora Inca: Somehow saying a youth with down upon his chin sound more poetic than "a youth whose voice cracks"
12:40 Torrey Philemon: Glad you came by, Ioannis. 
12:40 maia Nestor: LOL Theseus!
12:40 maia Nestor: Bye, Ioannis!
12:40 Torrey Philemon: LOL Aurora (or wet dreams, even!)
12:42 Aurora Inca: You mean "a youth with stains upon his chiton"? (sorry, had to say it)
12:42 Theseus Artistides: "Now the time had come when nightly did Telemachus moisten his bedclothes..."
12:43 maia Nestor: Torrey, as the host, I'm telling you, you can't lose control like this...*g*
12:43 Aurora Inca: *giggling uncontrollably*
12:43 Torrey Philemon: LOL
12:43 Theseus Artistides: Okay!  I'm sorry I started it, I admit!
12:43 Aurora Inca: *resumes a serious demeanor*
12:44 Theseus Artistides: Quick Torrey, give us one of your questions!
12:44 maia Nestor: *beaming at Aurora*
12:44 Torrey Philemon: (Given how informal the chat was last week, maia, I thought perhaps I should be a little looser! I was just debating whether or not to restate Theseus comment as "Now the time...when nightly did Telemachus come....SORRY, FOLKS!)
12:44 Aurora Inca: TORREY!
12:45 maia Nestor: Informal? My chat? 
12:45 Theseus Artistides: ROFLMAO!!!
12:45 Torrey Philemon: Ok here's another question. Why do you think Penelope set up the archery contest, instead of directly choosing one of the suitors...)
12:46 maia Nestor: I think there could be any number of answers to that question...
12:46 Theseus Artistides: Oh, that's easy... She thought they would all fail!  That archery stunt is incredibly difficult and she thought only O could do it.
 
 
 
 

12:46 Gorgo Cleomenes: Um, probably because she was cognizant of the power of the bow and the fact  it was somewhat divinely inspired.
12:46 Torrey Philemon: You're on, Maia!
12:47 Aurora Inca: That way she didn't have to accept responsibility for the choice. It coud be in the hands of the gods or fate. Then if she was unhappy, she wouldn't have to blame herself.
12:47 maia Nestor: Firstly, and this seems to me to be the most obvious, the Mycenaeans were very contest-driven. It would be the easiest solution in many ways...sort of, hey, he won fair and square. 
12:47 Torrey Philemon: So it was another delaying tactic?...And if someone did meet the challenge, it would be someone who at least had one similarity to Odysseus?
12:47 Gorgo Cleomenes: And by this time, she is told--not by an excellent source--that the suitors will meet death.
12:48 maia Nestor: Next, I echo Gorgo, and Aurora. Also, it ocurred to me that Athena put it into her mind. Athena had that agenda...
12:48 Torrey Philemon: Good point, Aurora. She could choose without choosing!
12:48 Theseus Artistides: Yes, Torrey.  That's what I think exactly.
12:48 Gorgo Cleomenes: Plus, one has to wonder if Penelope suspects the beggar is Odysseus. You have a Mycenaean queen telling a very personal dream to someone she barely knows. Hmmm
12:48 Aurora Inca: Like "eeny meeny miny mo, catch a suitor by the toe"
12:49 Theseus Artistides: Incidentally, I can't tell you how hard it was to stop reading at the end of book 20.
12:49 Torrey Philemon: My own impression is that Penelope has given up on Odysseus' eventual return. She says that repeatedly...she just doesn't believe that Odysseus is still alive, even when told so over and over again.
12:49 maia Nestor: Yes, Gorgo....REAMS have been written on that, did Penelope know?
12:50 maia Nestor: I don't think it's that she doesn't believe, Torrey, or that she doesn't want to believe...she desperately wants to believe...but she's afraid to hope. 
12:51 Gorgo Cleomenes: My personal theory is that she keeps the knowledge to herself so that she can protect her oikos. 
12:51 Torrey Philemon: Well said, Maia. It's too hard to have one's hopes repeatedly disappointed. It's easier to give them up and just accept the despair.
12:51 Gorgo Cleomenes: No, Penelope always had hope for the return of Odysseus.
12:52 Athenia Glaucon enters...
12:52 Athenia Glaucon: Hello my friends!
12:52 Torrey Philemon: Gorgo, but over and over again, she says, Odysseus is dead, Odysseus won't return, or something like that, whenever she's told that he will.
12:52 maia Nestor: Well, maybe it wasn't that well said, Gorgo. Of course she hoped, she just was afraid to allow herself such a luxury, you know? Like being two brained...you want it so badly, you're afraid to trust it. 
12:52 Theseus Artistides: Athenia!!!
12:53 maia Nestor: Auntie Athenia!
12:53 Torrey Philemon: Hello Auntie Athenia!
12:53 Athenia Glaucon: Yes, yes, I'm here to dispense advice, but not wisdom. ;-)
12:54 Gorgo Cleomenes: She's realist. She's almost the double of Odysseus and she has to maintain her oikos and the Ithacan line. She can't let herself be taken by flights of fancy. Plus, characters aren't two-dimensional. They say one thing, but think another.
12:54 Theseus Artistides: Doesn't anyone want to ask why the axe-arrow trick is so hard, or is everyone comfortable with the ballistics already?
12:54 Torrey Philemon: So Athena/Athenia, don't you think Odysseus was quick to trust you after you had supposedly abandoned him for so many years, because of Poseidon?
12:55 Theseus Artistides: <==Apparently a frustrated physics instructor.
12:56 Athenia Glaucon: No, Torrey, I don't think Athena abandoned Odysseus. There's a point where every teacher needs to let the student go out on their own, make their own mistakes, then return for more training.
12:56 Gorgo Cleomenes: Oh yes, Torrey I urge to look at  19.125. Her speech there is quite enlightening.
12:56 Aurora Inca: Having some hands-on experience with early weapons, I would just trust Homer's word that it's hard, but if you want to share, go ahead....
12:56 Torrey Philemon: Theseus, doesn't it appear that just stringing the bow was the hardest part? Though Telemachus almost had it, when Odysseus restrained him from succeeding (will look, Gorgo)
12:57 maia Nestor: The axe scenario is still one of hot debate, Theseus. There are any number of theories. 
12:58 Athenia Glaucon: Stringing the bow is about technique, shooting it is about skill, they are related, but nont synonymous.
12:58 maia Nestor: It's a composite bow, Torrey. There's a trick to it. You can't just string it. You have to be seated, put it across your leg...the Odyssey show on NBC got that part right, at least. 
12:59 maia Nestor: And of course there would be a trick to it....highlighting the cleverness of O, the man of many turns.
12:59 Theseus Artistides: Thank you, Aurora!  Well, like any projectile an arrow travels in an arc.  (That's why you generally don't aim straight at a target, but above it.)  The task here is fit that arc through a series of really very small openings all set in a line.  To accomplish this, the arrow would have to be launched with incredible velocity, requiring a very powerful bow, and a very strong archer.
13:00 Torrey Philemon: The suitors apparently aren't as strong as Telemachus. They've been spending all their time eating and partying....
13:00 Athenia Glaucon: The test thus test two different skills...power of mind and then arm. None of the suitors would be able to do that.
13:00 Aurora Inca: That explains why I always miss!
13:00 Theseus Artistides: And the stringing it part is past book 20 - somebody's cheating!
13:00 Torrey Philemon: Patience. It requires a lot of patience and attention to detail, which Odysseus has...
13:01 maia Nestor: The book doesn't explain that, Theseus. About the stringing...that's been posited by Homeric scholars ever since. 
13:02 Athenia Glaucon: Not just patience - technique. to do it effortlessly, as O. does, takes practice, which takes patience.
13:02 Athenia Glaucon: Heck, Maia, I have trouble stringing a regular 70lb. recurve.
13:03 maia Nestor: A, I find it hard to believe you have trouble with anything!
13:04 Theseus Artistides: Surely she is being modest.
13:05 Athenia Glaucon: Nope - just honest. :-)
13:05 Athenia Glaucon: Theseus, NO ONE has ever accused me of being modest.
13:06 Theseus Artistides: Good!  Personally, I think it's an ugly trait.
13:06 maia Nestor: NEVER modest...but she can be a lil bit self-effacing. There's always womb for improvement, as Auntie might say...
13:06 Theseus Artistides: Anyway, next question! *grin*
13:07 Torrey Philemon: Ok here's another question. Penelope's dream. I have trouble with the interpretation of it, because it begins that Penelope dreams she loved to watch the geese and then an eagle killed them. She loved to watch the geese? But she didn't love to watch the suitors...
13:08 Athenia Glaucon: So, why *did* Odysseus stop telemachus from becoming the man of the house and string the bow?
13:09 Torrey Philemon: (Odysseus wanted HIS own revenge...when the time was right, and he had the situation set up to kill all the suitors...right?)
13:09 Theseus Artistides: I didn't get the dream either, Torrey.  And that's what I meant about beyond book 20, Athenia. *grin*  (I think it's just so that he can get that weapon into his hands, but I haven't read that far yet.)
13:10 maia Nestor: I think it was part of Athena's plan, too. The slight was against his house, he had to take the revenge. Show everyone that he was still viable. 
13:10 Myrrhine Solon enters...
13:10 Aurora Inca: Dreams sometimes start like that. An ordinary scene, and then the symbolism starts to kick in. Maybe it was an ordinary dream to begin with, and then the omen-giving gods used it to get their message across.
13:11 Hetaira Lysias enters...
13:11 Theseus Artistides: Or, forgive me for going out on a Freudian limb, maybe Penelope's subconscious is betraying the idea that she might like all the attention the birds have been giving her.
13:12 Torrey Philemon: Welcome, Myrhhine...Well, it's puzzling. My first impression of the dream is that the geese are something she treasures, and that the eagle is the "bad guy". The interpretation given then reverses it
13:12 Hetaira Lysias: Hey there folks. *groggy smile* 
13:12 maia Nestor: Hetaira! 
13:12 Athenia Glaucon: Welcome to the world of light, Hetaira. <g>
13:12 maia Nestor: BTW, gang, Gorgo sends her regrets. 
13:12 Torrey Philemon: Heh heh Maia might dispute that, Theseus! (the old Is-Penelope-at-all-at-fault issue)
13:12 Theseus Artistides: Hetaira!!!
13:13 Aurora Inca: Theseus - good point. Who isn't flattered by attention a little bit, even if unwanted, if it isn't TOO annoying.
13:13 Hetaira Lysias: Hey Athenia, Theseus, maia and anyone else I can't focus properly on at the moment. :) 
13:13 Athenia Glaucon: Maybe, Torrey, she doesn't "enjoy" watching the geese as much as she finds them amusing. 
13:13 maia Nestor: Now come on, Torrey, I never said she was without fault! She'd be perfect then, and perfection is boring. 
13:13 Theseus Artistides: Now, how am I going to keep the goofy grin off my face?
13:13 maia Nestor: Hetaira stayed up way too late last night partying with me. My fault. 
13:13 Torrey Philemon: I'm partly teasing you, Maia!
13:13 Hetaira Lysias: Why would that be Freudian Theseus? *curious look* 
13:14 Theseus Artistides: Whoa, the dream interp. thing was just an idle thought!
13:14 maia Nestor: Just partly, Torrey? *grin*
13:15 Hetaira Lysias: Dream interpretation by way of Freud is pretty limited, he always took it back to the basics; penis-envy, id and unresolved childhood issues. 
13:16 Theseus Artistides: Ah, then I am mistaken... The subconscious is hardly my forte.
13:16 Torrey Philemon: Fagles: I keep 20 geese in the house, from the water trough/ they come and peck their wheat - I love to watchm them. But down from a mountain swooped this great hook-beaked eagle.
13:16 Hetaira Lysias: Now a Jungian interpretation of the dream might uncover some interesting archetypes. Birds in particular could be seen as freedom, flight from responsibility, so on. :) 
13:16 maia Nestor: And the conscious, Theseus?
13:16 Theseus Artistides: And Freud is even further down there on my list of specialties.
13:17 Theseus Artistides: I'm certainly better with the conscious.
13:17 Hetaira Lysias: I think he might have even said birds were higher thought processes. *musing* 
13:18 Torrey Philemon: The eagle is so often an omen....divine intervention.
13:18 Athenia Glaucon: And geese are certainly earthy birds, commonplace, where eagles were more lofty, more "of the Gods."
13:18 maia Nestor: As a rule, I always defer to oracles and hetairae.
13:19 Aurora Inca: Domesticity vs. the Hunter. The stay-at-home suitors defeated by the homecoming warrior?
13:19 Torrey Philemon: I get hung up on the part about "she loved to watch" the geese ( I'm a  dream therapist and lead dream interpretation groups in real life, so I can get carried away with this)
13:19 Hetaira Lysias: Divine intervention in that time, the higher mind in this time?  There was no ego, super-ego or anima/animus in Homer's day. *grin* 
13:19 Athenia Glaucon: Hetairae first - they know everything.
13:19 Torrey Philemon: Maia, that's a great "signature line"!
13:20 Athenia Glaucon: But that might be Fagles's words, not Penelope's. Anyone else got a different translation?
13:20 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah actually, I just saw Aurora's comment, I like that. 
13:21 maia Nestor: And that's a good point, Hetaira...there were omens in Homer's time, but certainly no consciousness of the subconscious. 
13:21 Torrey Philemon: Hetaira, I'd think it was all there, they just called it by another name. Hubris for one..
13:21 Hetaira Lysias: I have Fitzgerald's around here *searching*
13:22 Aurora Inca: What book is the "loved to watch" in? I haven't read that far....
13:22 Theseus Artistides: I'm thinking 19.
13:23 Torrey Philemon: There's some theory isn't there Maia about the development of the human brain since Homer's time. Like the right brain and left brain were configured differently...and what was in the "unconscious" was once projected onto gods/omens and actually heard as "voices". Forget the source, there's some book on the subject...
13:23 Hetaira Lysias: So Hubris in that day an age translates to what in common day? Not being true to your higher mind? 
13:23 Torrey Philemon: In Fagles, it's 19:606...
13:24 Athenia Glaucon: That's pretty much the way it is in most aboriginal cultures. Folks who "see"  or "hear" things are touched by the gods.
13:24 maia Nestor: Hubris is just being insolent towards the gods. Well, Torrey, I don't ascribe to that theory...human evolution works far more slowly than that. It's just cultural differences...
13:24 maia Nestor: Are you thinking of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes, Torrey?
13:24 Aurora Inca: OK. Lawrence says "and I love wtaching them"
13:25 Torrey Philemon: I brought up hubris in reference the comment about no conception of EGO or the unconscious...
13:25 Athenia Glaucon: My ancient translation says that the geese "gladden her eyes."
13:25 Aurora Inca: I've read that, too, Torrey. Though I don't remember where. And those that still hear them as voices, we treat with medication.
13:25 Torrey Philemon: That may be the source, Maia.
13:25 maia Nestor: In simpler times, things were simpler. 
13:26 Theseus Artistides: I agree with Maia on the cultural vs. evolution aspect.  (But apparently, I have nothing new to add.)
13:26 Athenia Glaucon: Its by S.O. Andrew from the 1953 Everyman's library. My mom or dad stole it from the public library. ;-)
13:26 maia Nestor: Like Agamemnon, when he is trying, in the Iliad to say why he acted in such a way, just shrugs his shoulders and says ATE....
13:27 maia Nestor: They had a very simple heroic code, and that is how they lived. None of this, my father left me, my mother was a tramp....they didn't THINK in those terms. 
13:27 Hetaira Lysias: Yes, I know, and I was asking for clarification Torrey, you threw hubris out there, quantify it for me in present day psychology so that I know I'm getting the message correctly. 
13:27 Hetaira Lysias: Please. :) 
13:28 Torrey Philemon: My reference to hubris was just an aside. Just musing on different conceptions of ego, in different ways, at different times...
13:29 Hetaira Lysias: Okay, just checking. I thought you had something specific in mind. 
13:29 Theseus Artistides: I thought hubris was overweaning arrogance, in particular in relation to a mortal and the gods and/or fate.
13:30 maia Nestor: Yes, just real insolence. Believing in yourself to the exclusion of the gods. 
13:30 Theseus Artistides: Is it time for another question?
13:30 Hetaira Lysias: I think we established that Theseus, I was actually thinking about how hubris works in post depth-psychology minds. :) 
13:30 Hetaira Lysias: i.e. would hubris be someone with control issues? *grin* 
13:31 Athenia Glaucon: We'd probably call it sociopathy.
13:31 Torrey Philemon: Anyone else want to put out a question? I always have a reservoir of them, but let's see what you all have.
13:31 Theseus Artistides: "post depth-psychology minds"?
13:31 Hetaira Lysias: Meglomania Athenia? 
13:31 Hetaira Lysias: Yeah Theseus...post Freud/Jung. 
13:31 Theseus Artistides: Oh, I get it.  Never mind.
13:32 Athenia Glaucon: No, because that allows for other people, even if only as tools. sociopathy  is about "me."
13:32 Theseus Artistides: I seem to be somewhat slow today.
13:33 Hetaira Lysias: I'm with ya Theseus. *tired smile* 
13:33 Theseus Artistides: (Let me know when it's nap time.) *grin*
13:34 Athenia Glaucon: Nap time! Followed by milk and cookies for the whole class!
13:34 Hetaira Lysias: Oh, don't go there Theseus. *grin* 
13:34 Theseus Artistides: I think there are people (absolutely not me!) who would say our entire modern culture suffers from hubris.
13:35 Athenia Glaucon enters...
13:35 Torrey Philemon: You all are reaffirming my theory that 1 1/2 hours into an "educational" chat people need a breather and want to regress!
13:35 Athenia Glaucon: Not all of us, but there are quite a few who do. 
13:35 Theseus Artistides: Aw, and that's my favorite place, too! *faux pout*
13:35 Hetaira Lysias: Nietsche (sp?) is to blame Theseus; God Is Dead. ;) 
13:36 maia Nestor: I have more of an observation than a question; it is clear to me that out of all the characters Homer did, he truly loved Odysseus the most. Seemed enthralled with the character. 
13:36 Torrey Philemon: Interesting point, Theseus. 
13:36 Athenia Glaucon: No, it was the age of "reason" that did it.
13:36 Hetaira Lysias: Forgot a "z" somewhere along the line. *scratching head* 
13:36 Theseus Artistides: Yeah, I can usually take about two hours of chat like this max.
13:37 Torrey Philemon: Why do you say that, Maia? Because he presents Odysseus in such a positive light?
13:37 Aurora Inca: I think we regressed earlier with the "ways of describing entering manhood" thing.
13:37 Athenia Glaucon: I don't think he does present O. in a positive light, but certainly a more real light.
13:38 Athenia Glaucon: Oh, dear - I'm glad I missed that part, Aurora. :-)
13:38 Theseus Artistides: Maybe we just need to run around the playground.
13:38 maia Nestor: Well as a writer, you know you can fall in love with your character. He made Odysseus the most rounded of all his, imo. A modern, thinking on his feet human...it was clear he admired him enormously. 
13:38 Hetaira Lysias: O seems very human to me, meaty and substantial, like Homer based him on someone he knew. 
13:38 Aurora Inca: *ring* RECESS!!!!
13:38 Aurora Inca: joke
13:39 Hetaira Lysias: I have dibs on the swings! 
13:39 Theseus Artistides: I'm also fascinated by the utter lack of moral stigma attached to lying throughout this book.
13:39 maia Nestor: Someone he knew, or someone he had learned to love; Homer was using a tradition that was already there, right? 
13:40 maia Nestor: Ah Theseus...again, that's because a hero survived. A hero did what he could to effect the survival. He was brave. Lying isn't seen by them as cowardly. 
13:40 Torrey Philemon: Right, Theseus. There's even one point at which Odysseus says he hates men who lie...they're the lowest of the low, or something like that.
13:40 Athenia Glaucon: I get the seesaw!
13:40 Hetaira Lysias: This is true maia. 
13:41 Athenia Glaucon: Maia speaks from the same perspective as Homer - she also loves O. :-)
13:41 Theseus Artistides: (I always go for the monkey bars, myself.  But if Hetaira needs a push or a dozen, I'm happy to offer my services.)
13:41 Hetaira Lysias: I would think truth/falsehoods were very much tied in with honor in that time, so they were more open to interpretation....one lie is not as bad as another type o' thing
13:42 Torrey Philemon: Book 14: 184, Odysseus says, "I hate that man who like the very Gates of Death who/ground down by poverty stoops to peddling lies...
13:42 Hetaira Lysias: I'm so there Theseus, push away. :) 
13:42 Theseus Artistides: I don't think the dishonesty is mysterious, but the way Homer revels in it at times is, for me, fascinating.
13:42 Torrey Philemon: Now folks, it's my avatar who's sitting on a swing! (-:
13:43 maia Nestor: Echoing what Achilles said? But Achilles meant it...
13:43 maia Nestor: Yes, Athenia...you've nailed me right! I do love him...
13:44 Athenia Glaucon: You know, H., of the significance of the swing, don't you?
13:44 Torrey Philemon: Odysseus however isn't stooping to peddling lies. He's rising to the occasion, supposedly for a higher purpose (like mass murder. Did you read the contemporary news story interpretation of Odysseus as a mass murderer?)
13:44 Theseus Artistides: (I can do the hopping from one to the other, pushing both of you.  Hmmm, that's... oh, never mind!)
 

continue with chat five