Odyssey Chats at Fabularum Bibliotheca
CHAT ONE: Page Three
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Five Odyssey chat transcripts to follow!
15:19 maia Nestor enters...
15:19 Torrey Philemon: Maia,
welcome. We're probably near to closing...but join in.
15:19 Asterix Flavius: Yo,
maia! Jump right in and unload on me!
15:19 maia
Nestor: Hello all...sorry I'm late.
15:20 Petra Stuyvesant: Do you
really feel dumped on Asterix?
15:20 Torrey Philemon: We've been
going on for 2 1/4 hours...how much longer do you all want to continue? Perhaps Maia wants
to bring up a topic...
15:20 maia
Nestor: Torrey, I just read that bit about Penelope having some responsibility for
encouraging the suitors...do you really believe that?
15:21 Asterix Flavius: No, of
course not. Well, except by the Yankees. I took that personally.
15:21 Petra Stuyvesant: I can go
to at least 4pm
15:21 maia
Nestor: Asterix, how could you think I'd unload on you? LOL! Unless you've been very
bad...
15:21 Aurora
Inca: Asterix, we're NOT equating you with the suitors, unless you yourself identify
with them......*grin*
15:21 maia
Nestor: Oh, now the Yankees...yes, that would be cause enough for me. LOL!
15:22 Asterix Flavius: Apparently
all men are bad [except for Petra's]
15:22 maia
Nestor: I don't think Penelope had any choice at all viz a viz the suitors.
15:22 Torrey Philemon: Maia, I'm
not sure about Penelope's role in it.
15:22 Aurora
Inca: Please, not a geder war! I LIKE men! (nice ones)
15:23 Petra Stuyvesant: There are
a FEW more I think *smile* you sound like one - if you are a man that is :^)
15:23 Asterix Flavius: >maia -
please expand on that thought.
15:23 Aurora
Inca: geder = gender
15:24 maia
Nestor: She asked them to go, they wouldn't. What was she to do? She had to do
whatever she could to preserve the kingdom and the life of her son. If she had
capitulated, as many lesser women would have done, Telemachos would NOT have achieved
manhood. And you have to understand, that in both the Bronze Age and Homeric Greece...
15:24 Caenus Didius enters...
15:24 Caenus Didius exits...
15:24 Torrey Philemon: Ok, I'm
thinking of a relationship I ended once. I was too nice about it. The guy didn't get that
I REALLY MEANT IT. I wonder if some part of Penelope did like the attention, even though
she hated their behavior. Maybe she needed to have been nastier with them...
15:25 maia
Nestor: that guest friendship was a sacred issue...these men were considered evil by
all listeners to Homer, because they were in direct violation of the tenets of the
time...a direct slap at Zeus himself under his guise as Zeus Horkios, I believe it was...
15:25 Asterix Flavius enters...
15:26 maia
Nestor: No, Torrey, you're putting a modern spin on things...when we read Homer, we
have to sort of BE Homeric! LOL! We have to embrace the tenets and customs of the time.
It's sort of like revisionist history, you know? Like slamming Columbus, by putting
twentieth century values on a 15th century explorer.
15:27 Torrey Philemon: It's hard
Maia when you don't know enough about women's rights at that time. Was there really
nothing she could do? Was she totally powerless? That's where I'm unclear.
15:27 Petra Stuyvesant: They seem
like heartless creatures - like vultures feasting on living flesh - undisturbed by the
obvious distress of Penelope. Anyone can see she loves only O and is not ready for a
new man in her life.
15:27 Aurora
Inca: I need to get going everyone. I'll try to make it to the next chat. Don't forget
my b-day party on Thurs. Here's the invitation if you haven't seen it http://www.ancientsites.com/~Aurora_Inca/bdayinvite.jpg
15:28 maia
Nestor: While it might have been flattering to have been wanted, how many women
consider such a thing when they are fighting for their place? Their young? No, there was
really nothing...Telemachos called an assembly and no one could help...or would help.
Everyone feared civil war, and she had no recourse. So she did what she could.
15:28 Torrey Philemon: Aurora,
before you go, can we clarify the next chat. Asterix, I was wondering if we could do just
books 9-12.
15:28 Petra Stuyvesant: Bye Aurora
15:28 Petronilla Livius: Bye
Aurora
15:28 Asterix Flavius: Bye Aurora
15:29 Torrey Philemon: Would you
all like to do four chats, rather than three?
15:29 maia
Nestor: IMO, Homer shows us that she is indeed a worthy consort of O's...he is the man
of the the many twists, and she matches him.
15:29 Aurora
Inca: Yes. Such rich food should be eaten in small nibbles!
15:29 maia
Nestor: Bye Aurora...
15:29 Petra Stuyvesant: The guest
rules: Look how WARMY Athena is greeted as the guest Mentes. Telemakos is
overjoyed and seeks to do everything for him. It seems that only the guests abusing
the priviledge are frowned upon.
15:30 Petra Stuyvesant: Yes, 4
15:30 Petra Stuyvesant: I meant
"warmly"
15:31 maia
Nestor: Yes, Petra. That's it. Guest friendship has no modern counterpart with us. You
have to remember how they adhered to a code; simple but effective. Homer also shows how O,
with his great twisty intellect, was perceived as something as an outsider, because he was
so different.
15:31 Asterix Flavius: 9-12 is fine
by me. Especially since I imagine that we will be talking a lot about 1-8.
They aren't discrete sections but part of one story. I imagine there will still be
things to say about Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus. Also compare Penelope with
Clytemnestra,
15:32 Petra Stuyvesant exits...
15:32 Aurora Inca exits...
15:33 Torrey Philemon: What do you
think of Telemachus' line about Penelope: "Telemachus also says of Penelope in book
one: "She neither rejects a marriage she despises nor can she bear to bring the
courting to an end." ?? (Gee folks, I'm really not into blaming the victim, really!)
15:33 Asterix Flavius: Who all is
left?
15:33 Torrey Philemon: WHoops. I
was trying to cut and paste.
15:33 maia
Nestor: That would be interesting, Torrey...of course I have differing feelings about
Clytemnestra, but the contrast is very great in Homer, especially in light of the fact
that she and Penelope were first cousins.
15:34 Asterix Flavius: >Torrey -
when I read that I thought is was more Telemachus grousing about what was happening than
necessarily an objective report.
15:34 Petronilla Livius: Torrey -
is that T's frustration speaking?
15:34 Petra Stuyvesant enters...
15:35 maia
Nestor: And Torrey, different translations differ quite wildly as to specific
lines...in most scholiast views, I believe, that line is going directly towards
Telemachos' confusion as to issues...Penelope does not take him into her confidence, nor
he hers...
15:35 OscarWilde Witssen enters...
15:35 Torrey Philemon: Ok who's
here now? Asterix, Maia, Petronilla. Anyone else? I don't think Petra was intending to
leave...
15:35 Asterix Flavius: Yea, verily,
Petronilla!
15:36 Torrey Philemon: Gee folks,
I'm feeling very guilty about questioning Penelope!
15:36 Petra Stuyvesant: I'm back
got frozen out for a minute -Torrey where is that quote about P what book aprox what
paragraph?
15:36 maia
Nestor: Oh, I forgive you, Torrey! *grin*
15:37 OscarWilde Witssen exits...
15:37 Torrey Philemon: Not sure,
Petra. I copied it down somewhere. It's book one though.
15:37 maia
Nestor: That's part of the beauty of Homer...he provides us a canvas for us to
interpret, like any exceptional artist...
15:38 maia
Nestor: Which translation do you have, Torrey?
15:38 Petronilla Livius: Petra
- Book 1 line 290 in my translation - Fagles
15:38 Torrey Philemon: I have
Fagles but I took that quote out of an interpretation I was reading, so I'm not sure it's
Fagles.
15:39 maia
Nestor: The current school of thought is that Lattimore is the best for adherence to
the Greek, and Lombardo is the best with translation of the spirit of Homer...translating
it into modern terms. Having said that, I love Fagles. And also Fitzgerald...
15:39 Petra Stuyvesant: Okay, mine
says: Spurn them she dare not, though she hates that marriage, nor can she bring
herself to choose among them...."
15:39 Torrey Philemon: Yes, just
checked. That was Fagles.
15:40 Torrey Philemon: And right,
we're hearing those words through the eyes of a disgruntled, powerless adolescent who
wants something to be done...
15:40 Petra Stuyvesant: mine
Fitzgerald
15:41 Asterix Flavius: "And
mother.../she neither rejects a marriage she despises/nor can she bear to bring the
courting to an end--/while they continue to bleed my household white." He is
talking to SAthena at the time.
15:41 Torrey Philemon: Spurn them
she dare not....BECAUSE? They might kill her son? They might take revenge?
15:42 Torrey Philemon: Yes, the
translations make a difference. "She dare not" has a different meaning entirely
from "nor can she bear to bring the courting to an end"!
15:42 Petra Stuyvesant: Sounds
like she was afraid of something, if only the fear of breaking the courtesy laws
15:43 Torrey Philemon: Petra, which
translation did you say you are reading?
15:44 Torrey Philemon: Oh, you said
it. Fitzgerald.
15:45 Pomponia Tullius enters...
15:45 Petra Stuyvesant: In the
Lawrence it says: "It seems that she can neither reject the horrible offers, out and
out, nor accept any one of them.""
15:46 Pomponia Tullius: Salvete
omnes.
15:46 Petra Stuyvesant: Which adds
the fact that T thinks the offers are horrible - so it seems that these
"guesses" at what is mother is up to are simply T's own ideas
15:47 Torrey Philemon: Welcome,
Pomponia. We've been going for 2 3/4 hours here and are just winding down (I think).
15:47 Asterix Flavius: Salve!
15:47 Petra Stuyvesant: ditto,
Pomponia
15:47 Pomponia Tullius: I just got
in the door (at home as well as here). Always too little, too late.
15:47 Torrey Philemon: Telemachus
is not likely to really understand his mother's situation. What teenage boy really
understands his mother's choices?
15:48 Petra Stuyvesant: I agree
Torrey
15:48 Asterix Flavius: >Pomponia
- would the latin be "I te, puella!"[as opposed to "Ite, puellae!]?
15:48 maia Nestor enters...
15:48 Pomponia Tullius: No subject
would be expressed, Asterix.
15:49 maia
Nestor: So sorry, I froze...
15:49 Asterix Flavius: But the
wordplay needed it.
15:49 Petra Stuyvesant: Happens to
the best of us, Maia :^)
15:50 maia
Nestor: Pomponia would be the one to know about the subtle variations of
translations...
15:50 Pomponia Tullius: But
grammar *always8 takes precedence over play.
15:50 Pomponia Tullius: And I
don't have a Greek text of the Odyssey handy here. Sorry, maia.
15:51 Torrey Philemon: Pomponia,
we're looking at Telemachus' line in which he says his mother doesn't say no to/or dare
reject the suitors. Different words, different interpretations.
15:51 maia
Nestor: Oh, that's all right, Pomp....but we were talking about the various
translations, and how the message might differ slightly. Of course, every translator
probably brings a bias to it, unconcsiously, no?
15:51 Pomponia Tullius: Oddly
enough, a discussion about misleading translations is taking place right now on Classics
Lists.
15:52 Pomponia Tullius: Let me see
what I can find at Perseus, though. Which line is that (in the original)?
15:52 Torrey Philemon: And come to
think of it, it is indeed a male historical tradition to blame the female!
15:52 maia
Nestor: I saw that...very enlightening. I even emailed Torrey one of the posts...
15:53 Asterix Flavius: Book One,
line approx 240-250
15:53 Torrey Philemon: I have book
one, approx 288...
15:54 Asterix Flavius: >Torrey -
288 in the trans, not original
15:55 Pomponia Tullius: Ah, that's
the problem--misleading lines as well.
15:55 Torrey Philemon: Gee, I
didn't know they numbered the lines differently between the two.
15:55 Asterix Flavius: The original
lines are in small numbers at the top of the page
15:55 maia
Nestor: It's the line where Telemachos is complainig to Athena (in disguise) that
Penelope can't reject the suitors or accept them...
15:56 Pomponia Tullius: Andig to
take a long time--Perseus has it transliterated instead of in Greek script.
15:57 Pomponia Tullius: I was cut
off in the middle somehow. I meant to say it's going to take a long time.
15:57 Torrey Philemon: And of
course we're dealing with...that this is Telemachus' INTERPRETATION of Penelope's
behavior. That's all we know because we never directly see Penelope relating to the
suitors here.
15:57 Asterix Flavius: Sorry
15:58 Pomponia Tullius: I hate
trying to figure out what letter is standing in for which.
15:58 Torrey Philemon: Pomponia,
maybe you can post a message on the FB Calliope message board later...if you don't mind?
15:59 Pomponia Tullius: Sure,
Torrey. But you know, if Homer wanted to present that as merely Telemachus's
interpretation, hw could indicate that, as opposed to presenting only that.
15:59 maia
Nestor: I've read every bit of critical interpretation I could get my hands in for
years...and it's amazing how people's perceptions differ...was Penelope manipulative? Was
she not? Did she know that the beggar was Odysseus. Did she not....it's very revealing, in
a way, just to see how wide apart the perceptions may be. And most of these from people
who have studied for years and years, it is their life's work.
16:00 Pomponia Tullius: In the
Iliad, for instance, we see the dispute between Achilles and Agamemnon from several
vantage points.
16:00 Torrey Philemon: Well maybe
she was scared of the suitors too. She didn't know what they would do...and she was used
to being gracious.
16:01 Torrey Philemon: It would be
interesting to post that same line in about six or more translations, and also get
opinions from more people who can read the original Greek.
16:01 maia
Nestor: Good point, Pomponia...but you know, I don't think we will ever have anything
approaching empiric truth with Homer...too much has been lost. And imo, nor should we. Art
shouldn't be limited.
16:02 Petra Stuyvesant: It's also
hearc to make decisions as an individual when you are accustomed to consulting on things
as a couple. These two O and P seem to be a notch up over the other people of their
time - more thoughtful - and they seem to be equals with (in terms of the imprtance of)
each other.
16:03 Pomponia Tullius: Oh, no
that's the richness of Homer, maia.
16:03 Torrey Philemon: Do you all
want to wind down now? It's after 4. Is there anything else anyone wants to bring up?
16:03 Petra Stuyvesant: I know I
typed "hard" not hearc
16:05 Asterix Flavius: >Torrey -
are you talking about Nausicaa again?
16:05 Torrey Philemon: It's so
great to have such a stimulating discussion, folks. To be part of a chat that is
INTELLIGENT conversation, and respectful of differences too.
16:05 maia
Nestor: Oh Petra, I think they are a wondrous couple, but that isn't the point. They
are both individuals, very well-realized, in their own right.
16:05 Torrey Philemon: Ohh Asterix!
16:06 Asterix Flavius: >Petra -
she has had 20 years to make some decisions on her own.
16:06 maia
Nestor: I can see I'll have to go to the transcripts...LOL!
16:07 Petra Stuyvesant: I agree, I
meant that perhaps it was difficult for Penelope to decide what to do about the suitors on
her own, especially after the assembly offered her no support.
16:07 Torrey Philemon: Maia, we
were discussing earlier that Nausicaa means seasickness and I said at least she wasn't
named Vomit!
16:07 Petra Stuyvesant: I mean
these men were breaking the accepted laws and still she got no backing.
16:08 maia
Nestor: Yes, it was a tight spot for her. And thanks Torrey, on second thought, I'll
avoid those transcripts. *grin*
16:08 Petronilla Livius: I'm
looking forward to the discussion on the next 4 books. Have to leave now, but it's
been really interesting! Bye all.
16:08 Torrey Philemon: I wonder how
she's been portrayed in this regard in dramatic interpretations of the Odyssey. All I know
is the recent NBC version, and I don't remember who P was with the suitors...
16:08 maia
Nestor: Bye, Petronilla. Nice meeting you!
16:08 Petra Stuyvesant: Farewell
Petraonilla
16:08 Asterix Flavius: I'm sorry,
did I say that out loud?
16:09 Torrey Philemon: Bye
Petronilla. 8 pm next Saturday edt for books 9-12 and whatever's left to cover in the
earlier ones. With Asterix leading, right?
16:09 Asterix Flavius: Bye
Petronilla!
16:09 maia
Nestor: Greta Scacchi played her...and Petra, I think Pen handled it beautifully, but
that's my own bias.
16:09 Petronilla Livius enters...
16:09 Petronilla Livius exits...
16:10 Asterix Flavius: Spot
on! Saturday at 8-ish.
16:10 Torrey Philemon: Anything
else, in closing?
16:10 Petra Stuyvesant: I agree
with you Maia, I think she did the only things she could given her circumstances.
16:10 maia
Nestor: Wow, this has been a blast!
16:11 maia
Nestor: I had given up trying to get into AS, am glad I perservered.
16:11 Torrey Philemon: Do check out
the transcript, maia. We had some interesting discussion earlier too.
16:11 maia
Nestor: You know I will...
16:11 Torrey Philemon: The
transcript will be available here, but I'll also post it on a web page later tonight or
tomorrow night...
16:12 maia
Nestor: Pomponia is still at Perseus...
16:12 Petra Stuyvesant: I want to
thank you Torrey! You have been great about everything!
16:12 Pomponia Tullius: The Greek
says she is neither able to refuse the hateful marriage, or to make an end.
16:12 Petra Stuyvesant: I also
appreciate all the work you've put into your pages here at AS - very helpful information
16:13 Torrey Philemon: Well thanks
to all of you. Just knowing I have such intelligent and interested cohorts motivates me...
16:13 Torrey Philemon: Thanks,
Pomponia...but of course it doesn't say WHY so that's what we wonder.
16:14 Petra Stuyvesant: I will be
posting links to some art based on The Odyssey in the next few days - look for it if you
are interested at http://www.ancientsites.com/~Petra_Stuyvesant/FB/odyart.html
(NOTE: see corrected url below)
16:14 maia
Nestor: Way to go, Pomponia! *clapping*
16:14 Asterix Flavius: Yes, thanx,
Torrey. You do a heckuvalotta work.
16:15 Pomponia Tullius: No, Homer
often leaves you wondering. That's why he has absorbed audiences for 2,700 years.
16:15 maia
Nestor: If any of you are interested in the varying ways O has been perceived
throughout history, check out W.B. Sanford's books...
16:15 Torrey Philemon: Great! Your
pages are just beautiful. And my new Calypso page is at http://www.webwinds.com/thalassa/calypso.htm
but I'll also upload it to my A.S. site now that it's up again. (NOTE: now at http://www.ancientsites.com/~Torrey_Philemon/odyssey/calypso.htm)
16:15 Petra Stuyvesant: Ooops
add before http://www.ancientsites.com/~Petra_Stuyvesant/Main/FB/odyart.html
16:15 Torrey Philemon: Any
particular Sanford book, maia? (you're really knowledgable!)
16:16 maia
Nestor: Yeah, next time we'll have to discuss Calypso...it's my feeling, Torrey, that
she gave him up simply because she had no other choice. Zeus commanded it.
16:17 maia
Nestor: The Ulysses Theme and the Quest, or Search, for Ulysses. There's a whole bunch
of books out there, I have several, I'll look for titles.
16:17 Torrey Philemon: Check out
the transcript, Maia. That was the first 45 minutes...and post your thoughts on the
discussion board, ok? Eager to hear your thoughts on Calypso.
16:18 Petra Stuyvesant: This was
great! Thanks everyone.
16:18 Torrey Philemon: Bye to all
of you. Hope to see you all again next Saturday night edt.
16:19 maia
Nestor: Thanks, everyone. Glad to meet all of you...even the ones I already know!
16:19 Petra Stuyvesant: Bye :^)
16:19 Petra Stuyvesant exits...
16:19 Asterix Flavius: Yes, thanx
everyone. It has been a whirlwind and I wasn't even here for the first hour!
Bye all. Hugs and kisses.
16:19 Asterix Flavius exits...
16:20 maia
Nestor: Bye!
16:20 maia Nestor exits...
16:21 Pomponia Tullius: Valete.
16:22 Torrey Philemon: Just trying
to be the proper hostess and wait for the guests to leave before I depart...
16:23 Torrey Philemon exits...
END OF CHAT
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